How many people are needed to answer for Chazaras Hashatz-Part 1

How many people are needed to answer for Chazaras Hashatz?[1]

A. Introduction:

A Davar Shebekedusha, which includes the saying of Kaddish, Kedusha, Barchu, requires a Minyan of ten adult men in the room for it to be allowed to be said.[2] In addition to the requirement of having a minyan, one is also required to have at least nine people paying attention to the Chazan who is saying the Kaddish, Kedusha or Barchu.[3] In addition to having at least nine people paying attention, one must also have a certain amount of people within the Minyan who answer to the Kaddish, Kedusha, Barchu. In this regard, there is a difference between Kaddish, Kedusha, Barchu versus Chazaras Hashatz. By the former, it suffices to have six people in total involved in the answering [which is five people answering to the Chazan, for a total of six[4]] and hence if four people are still in the middle of Shemonah Esrei, Kaddish, Kedusha, and Barchu may still be recited.[5] However, by Chazaras Hashatz we require that there not only be nine people paying attention to the Chazan but that there also be nine people actually answering Amen to the blessings of the Chazan. It is this law that we will discuss below.

B. The law:[6]

A congregation does not fulfill the obligation of Chazaras Hashatz unless there are nine people listening (to the entire blessing from beginning to end[7]) and answering Amen[8] to the blessings of the Chazan.[9] If there aren’t nine people listening and answering Amen to his blessings, then his blessings may be considered[10] to be said in vain [unless someone in the Minyan has yet to hear Kedusha and nine people are listening but only five can answer[11], or he is praying for the first time and did not previously pray silently to himself[12], as will be explained next].[13] [Accordingly, a Minyan must wait until there are nine people who can listen and answer Amen prior to beginning Chazaras Hashatz. At the very least, there must be nine people who are able to listen and answer at the beginning of the Chazarah[14], however, initially it is required for there to be nine people who can listen and answer throughout the entire prayer.[15] If there are not nine people available who can listen and answer Amen, such as if some of the people are still in middle of Shemoneh Esrei, or are in middle of Birchas Shema/Shema[16], then they do not join as part of the required nine, and one must wait for them to finish Shemoneh Esrei or have someone else who can answer to join the Minyan.[17] In the event that there are nine people who are technically available to listen and answer but one is worried that they may not do so, then the Chazan is to have in mind that his prayer will be a Tefilas Nedava if there are not nine people listening and answering.[18]]

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[1] See Admur 55:7, 11; 56:4; 59:1, 4; 69:5; 124:1 and 6; 594:1; Michaber 55:6 and 124:4; Kaf Hachaim 55:48 and 53; 124:17 and 20; M”A 55:8; Taz 55:4; M”B 124:19; Piskeiy Teshuvos 55:11 footnote 94; 124:9; Yalkut Yosef and Halacha Berura on 55:6 and 124:3

[2] Admur 55:2; Michaber 55:1; Rambam Tefila 8:4; Mishneh Megillah 23b

[3] Admur 56:4; 125:1; Beis Yosef 125; Rosh Kelal 4:19; Taz 124:2; Kitzur SHU”A 15:7; 20:2; See Tehila Ledavid 55:6; Regarding the requirement for nine listeners by Chazaras Hashatz and when being Yotzei from Chazan, see all sources in coming footnotes

Other opinions: Some Poskim rule that we do not even require nine listeners, and that so is the custom to allow him even a person who is talking to join the Minyan. [M”A 55:8 in name of Shut Maharil 150; Taz 55:4 in name of Beis Yosef 55 in name of Iggur;  Elya Raba Zuta 55:3; Derech Hachaim; Daas Torah 55:7; Toras Chaim Sofer 55:12; Mikveh Yisrael p. 71; Mahariy Asad 1:26 that so is the custom and Minhag Doche Halacha; M”B 124:19 records this opinion; See M”B 55:32 and 38 and Shaar Hatziyon 55:36 and Biur Halacha 55:6 “Oa”; Piskeiy Teshuvos 55:11 and 124:9 then a time of great need one may be lenient; See Taz ibid who completely negates this opinion of the Maharil saying that we do not bring proofs from the idiots transgressed the law; See Kaf Hachaim 55:48, 53 and 124:17 and 20 who implies like this opinion regarding Davar Shebekidusha] However, eight listeners are required. [M”A ibid in negation of Ralbach 15 that one always requires 8 people paying attention and answering Amen to Chazan]

Regarding one who is sleeping: See Admur 55:8; Michaber 55:6; Tehila Ledavid 55:6

[4] Pashut! Piskeiy Teshuvos 55 footnote 87

[5] Admur 55:7 and in parentheses; Michaber 55:6; Hagahos Maimanis 8 Tes; Mahram 529; M”A 55:8 in name of Shut Ralbach 15; Kneses Hagedola 55; Elya Raba 55:7; Olas Tamid 55:4; Derech Hachaim; Kitzur SHU”A 15:7; Ben Ish Chaiy Vayechi 5; Aruch Hashulchan 55:13; M”B 55:32; Ketzos Hashulchan 15:2; Kinyan Torah 7:9; Or Letziyon 2:5-6; Halichos Olam on Ben Ish Chaiy ibid; Tzitz Eliezer 12:9; Mishnas Yosef 5:17; Mishneh Halachos 4:9; See Kaf Hachaim 55:48; Piskeiy Teshuvos 55:11

Other opinions: Some Poskim rule that we require at least eight listeners who pay attention and answer Amen to the Chazan, and hence only one person may still be in middle of Shemoneh Esrei. [M”A 55:8 in negation of Ralbach; Beir Heiytiv 55:9; Yad Aaron 55; Machazik Bracha 55:3; Shalemi Tzibur p. 79; Siddur Beis Oveid Dinei Hakadish 27; Chesed Lealafim 55:3; Chayeh Adam 29:1; Opinion in M”B 55:32; Kaf Hachaim 55:48 conclude that one should initially be stringent although in a time of need may be lenient; See Piskeiy Teshuvos 55:11 footnote 89] Other Poskim rule that initially we always require nine answers. [Perisha 124 in Derisha 1; Implication of Taz 55:4 and other Achronim] Piskeiy Teshuvos 55:11 footnote 92 concludes to initially always wait for nine answers, and only the time of need to be lenient with less, to suspect for opinion of Taaz ibid, and ruling of Michaber 55:7

[6] Admur 55:7 in parentheses “So long as there are majority of the Minyan [i.e. 6 including Chazan] answering Amen….then one may recite a Davar Shebekedusha (Such as Kaddish, and Barchu, or even Kedusha if the Chazan has not yet Davened Shemoneh Esrei quietly to himself. However, when the Chazan repeats Shemoneh Esrei a second time, one must be careful that there are nine people listening and answering Amen after his blessings in order so they not be blessings in vain, as explained in chapter 124:6”; Admur 55:11 regarding the allowance for a deaf or mute joining a minyan that “However, if the Chazan has already Davened Shemoneh Esrei quietly to himself then he is not to repeat Shemoneh Esrei a second time, unless there are nine people listening and answering Amen as explained in chapter 124:6”; Admur 59:4  [regarding Birchas Shema]“A Chazan can only be Motzi others if there are nine listening and answering Amen however when there aren’t nine listening then he is considered like a single individual”; Admur 69:5 “if there are six people who Davened Shemoneh Esrei together then one of them may repeat the prayer out loud if there are nine who will listen and answer Amen”; Admur 124:1 “one who does not know to Daven does not fulfill his obligation with hearing the Chazan unless there is a congregation which is nine people hearing and listening to the blessings of the Chazan and answering Amen afterwards”; Admur 124:6 “if there aren’t nine people listening to his blessings, it is close to being a blessing in vain… And appears like a blessing in vain”; Admur 594:1 “if there aren’t nine people answering Amen after his blessings no one can fulfill their obligation with his prayer”; Divrei Nechemia 66a; Ketzos Hashulchan 22:1; Likkutei Sichos 39:280, printed in Shulchan Menachem 1:22, “regarding joining for a minyan, my custom is as written in Admur 55:7, as even though it is in parentheses, this seems to be his opinion, and so is ruled in the Kitzur SHU”A”; Shulchan Hamelech 2:198; Yagdil Torah Jerusalem 4:1757; Michaber 124:4 “if there aren’t nine people listening to his blessings, it is close to being a blessing in vain”; Tur 124 in name of Rosh; Taz 55:4; P”M 55 M”Z 4; Ashel Avraham Butchach 55; Kitzur SHU”A 15:7 [regarding needing 9 listeners by Davar Shebekedusha, but not 9 answers]; 20:2 “By Chazaras Hashatz, since he already prayed privately and is only repeating the prayer for those who already prayed, therefore there must be nine people listening and answering in order so his blessings not be in vain, unlike what we ruled earlier in 15:7.”; Ben Ish Chaiy Vayechi 5-6; Kaf Hachaim 55:48; 124:17 and 20 that we require nine people listening as rules Michaber ibid, and hence if one is sleeping he does not join, Vien Leshanos, and that initially all 9 must be able to answer; Rav SZ”A in Ishei Yisrael 15 footnote 11

Other opinions: Some Poskim rule that although we require there to be nine listeners to the prayer of the Chazan, we do not require nine people answering Amen, [and rather having five people answer suffices]. [Implication of Admur 124:6 and Michaber 124:4 who omit need to answer Amen; See Kaf Hachaim 55:48, 53 and 124:17 and 20 that when not possible otherwise, one may be lenient even if one person cannot answer, although all nine are paying attention;]; Other Poskim rule that we do not even require nine listeners, and that so is the custom to allow him even a person who is talking to join the Minyan. [M”A 55:8 in name of Shut Maharil 150; Elya Raba Zuta 55:3; Derech Hachaim; Daas Torah 55:7; Toras Chaim Sofer 55:12; Mikveh Yisrael p. 71; Mahariy Asad 1:26 that so is the custom and Minhag Doche Halacha; M”B 124:19 records this opinion and concludes that those who do so should have the Chazan follow the advice of the Shulchan Shlomo 124:3 and have in mind that his prayer will be a Tefilas Nedava if there are nine people listening and answering; See M”B 55:32 and 38 and Shaar Hatziyon 55:36 and Biur Halacha 55:6 “Oa”; Piskeiy Teshuvos 55:11 and 124:9 then a time of great need one may be lenient; See Taz ibid who completely negates this opinion of the Maharil saying that we do not bring proofs from the idiots transgressed the law; See Kaf Hachaim 55:48 and 124:20 who completely negates this opinion from Halacha] However, some Poskim rule that even according to this approach, we require at least eight listeners who pay attention and answer Amen to the Chazan, and hence only one person may still be in Shemoneh Esrei. [M”A 55:8 in negation of Ralbach; Yad Aaron 55; Machazik Bracha 55:3; Shalemi Tzibur p. 79; Siddur Beis Oveid Dinei Hakadish 27; Chesed Lealafim 55:3] Igros Moshe 4:19 rules that if even six people are not paying attention it is a blessing in vain according to all

[7] Admur 124:6 in parentheses that the nine listeners must also listen to the beginning of the blessing, and listening to only the end of the blessing for the sake of the Amen does not suffice ”as the sages instituted that at least nine people listen also to the beginning of the blessings in order to fulfill the obligation of one who does not know to Daven, and this institution applies likewise today even though everyone prays on their own”

[8] The following sources record that not only listening, but also answering Amen is required: Admur 55:7 in parentheses; 55:11; 59:4 [in first part, if there are nine who will listen and answer Amen]; 69:5; 124:1 [regarding being Yotzei with Chazan]; 594:1 [regarding being Yotzei with Chazan]; Ketzos Hashulchan 22:1; Kitzur SHU”A 20:2; Ben Ish Chaiy Vayechi 6; Kaf Hachaim 55:53 and 124:17 that initially one should be stringent to require 9 answers

Apparent contradictions in Admur: Admur 124:6 omits writing that the nine listeners must also answer Amen [even though he constantly references to this chapter in 55:7 and 11] and only writes that they are required to be listening; Admur 213:4 rules that Answering Amen to a blessing is not necessary in order to fulfill one’s obligation; See Hisvadyus 5743 1:67 that the Rebbe questions this discrepancy although does not answer it; See Shulchan Hamelech 2:198; Practically, the Rebbe’s final ruling is that Amen is also required, as he answers in Likkutei Sichos 39:280, printed in Shulchan Menachem 1:22, and so rules the Ketzos Hashulchan ibid

Opinions who hold that answering Amen is not required by all nine: Some Poskim rule that although we require there to be nine listeners to the prayer of the Chazan, we do not require nine people answering Amen, [and rather having five people answer suffices]. [Implication of Admur 124:6 and Michaber 124:4 who omit need to answer Amen; P”M 124 M”Z 2; Peri Chadash 55:8; M”A 55:8 in name of Maharil that even 9 listeners is not required; See Kaf Hachaim 55:48, 53 and 124:17 that when not possible otherwise, one may be lenient even if one person cannot answer]

[9] The reason: As Chazaras Hashatz was instituted to be said with 10 people and when there are not nine people listening to the Chazan’s blessings, then it appears like a blessing in vain. [Admur 124:6; Levush 124:1; Kaf Hachaim 124:17] The reason for this is because the entire reason for why the sages instituted Chazaras Hashatz is in order to fulfill the obligation of one who does not know to Daven on his own, and one cannot fulfill the obligation of another unless there are nine people listening to the blessings of the Chazan [Admur 124:1 and 6 in parentheses; 594:1; See Rabbeinu Yona Brachos 13b; Beis Yosef 69; Levush 6:4; Rama 59:4; M”A 59:5] Accordingly, if there are not nine people answering Amen, then his prayer is not called a prayer of the congregation, and one can not fulfill his obligation of praying unless he hears the prayer from the congregation, as this was the original institution when they instituted praying with a minyan, that the Chazan repeat the prayer out loud in order to fulfill the obligation of one who does not know to pray, and if he does not pray a prayer of the congregation then he cannot fulfill the obligation of others in his prayer, as prayer is not like other blessings that one can simply fulfill his obligation through listening and answering Amen, as ideally everyone is to pray on their own and beseech for their own divine mercy, and it is not proper to ask for mercy through a messenger unless he is a messenger of the public. [Admur 594:1 and 59:4]

[10] Is it truly a blessing in vain? In one area, Admur plainly writes that it is considered a blessing in vain. [Admur 55:7, and also in 124:6 in the parentheses]; In another area, Admur writes a less definitive approach that is considered a worry of a possible blessing in vain. [Admur 594:1]; In another area, Admur writes that it merely appears like a blessing in vain, but is not really a blessing in vain. [Admur 124:6 in the beginning of the Halacha, unlike what he writes in parentheses; Michaber 124:4] [See coming footnotes for the quoted rulings. To note, that this is even in the case that the nine people are listening, if however, nine people are listening and simply not answering Amen, then it is subject to debate explained above and the different rulings of Admur.] Now, in explanation of this wording of Admur and Michaber ibid that it is only close to being a blessing in vain, the Derisha 124:1 explains that the reason for this is because we rule in chapter 55 that so long as one starts with nine people listening, then the Chazan may continue even if he loses part of his Minyan. Accordingly, if even in the beginning there were not nine people listening, and is for certain a blessing in vain. See also Pischeiy Teshuvah 124; Igros Moshe 4:19 that if even six people are not paying attention it is a blessing in vain according to all; See Piskeiy Teshuvos 124 footnote 86 for an alternative explanation in Admur; Vetzaruch Iyun as to why the most basic explanation was omitted, which is that it is permitted to repeat Shemoneh Esrei for the sake of meriting to hear Kedusha, and for Kedusha you only need six people answering. However, seemingly the reason this was omitted is because we conclude that even for Kedusha you need to have nine people listening even if not all nine can answer.

[11] See Admur 69:4-6

[12] Admur 55:7; 11; 69:5; 594:1; See Piskeiy Teshuvos 55:11 footnote 90

[13] Admur 55:7 in parentheses “in order so they not be blessings in vain”; Admur 124:6 in beginning “if there aren’t nine people listening to his blessings, it is close to being a blessing in vain…. then it appears like a blessing in vain.”; Admur 124:6 in parentheses “as if there are not nine people listening to the beginning of the blessings then the Chazan is saying the beginning of the blessings in vain”; Admur 594:1 “A worry of a blessing in vain”; Michaber 124:3

[14] See Derisha 124:1; Admur 55:4; Michaber 55:3; Kaf Hachaim 124:20; Piskeiy Teshuvos 124:9

[15] Implication of Derisha and Kaf Hachaim ibid; Setimas Admur ibid

[16] See Admur 66:5

[17] Kitzur SHU”A 20:2 “Thus, when there is an exact minyan, one needs to make sure that the Chazan does not begin the repetition until everyone finishes their prayer so they can answer”

[18] M”B 124:19, in name of Shulchan Shlomo 124:3