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Introduction:
This chapter will discuss the laws of salting and roasting stuffed chicken, turkey, goats and other fowl and animals. The question in such a case is whether the stuffing prevents the blood from leaving the fowl and hence requires the fowl to be separately salted for its blood prior to roasting. To also be discussed is the law of whether one may roast pieces of meat together if some of them contain blood while others have already had their blood removed.
1. May one roast a stuffed chicken or goat which has not been previously salted for its blood?[1]
A. The chicken is stuffed with meat [or vegetation[2]]:
- MichaberBoth chicken and meat stuffing contain blood-Permitted even Lechatchilah: It is permitted [even initially[3]] to roast chicken or goat that contains a meat stuffing, even if [both the chicken and] the meat stuffing has not been salted for its blood. It may be roasted in any position, even with the opening of the chicken or goat facing upwards. Chicken contains blood, not filling-Permitted even Lechatchilah: Furthermore even if the chicken or goat has already been salted for its blood [while the meat stuffing still contains blood] nevertheless it remains permitted to roast them as any blood which the chicken or goat may absorb from the meat stuffing will be expelled during the roasting process.[4] [This applies even if the chicken or goat was washed after salting and is no longer expelling gravy.[5]]
- Rama
Lechatchilah never roast stuffed chicken or goat that contains blood- Bedieved is permitted: Lechatchilah one may not roast a stuffed chicken of any sort[6] unless both the chicken and its meat filling have already been salted for their blood. However Bedieved if one roasted it without salting everything remains permitted. [This applies whether both the chicken and stuffing have not been salted for their blood, or if the chicken was salted for its blood and not the stuffing.[7]]
B. The law if the meat stuffing was salted for its blood but not the chicken:
- Rama[8]; Taz[9]:[Based on the above ruling of the Michaber that even if the chicken was salted while the stuffing contains blood it is permitted to roast them together] certainly if the meat stuffing has already been salted for its blood while the chicken has not yet been salted for its blood it is permitted to be roasted together. The reason for this is because the fire draws the blood from the chicken and it does not become absorbed into the meat stuffing. [However according to the Rama, as stated above, one is initially not to roast them together unless they were both salted for their blood.]
- Shach:[10]
If the inner meat stuffing was properly salted for its blood [Shiur Melicha] while the chicken was not yet salted for blood, or was salted but did not yet pass Shiur Melicha then it is forbidden to roast them together and if one does so the stuffing becomes forbidden.[11]
C. The law if the chicken is stuffed with eggs:[12]
All the above was dealing with chicken or goat that was stuffed with meat or vegetation. If however the chicken was stuffed with eggs [and meat[13]] which congeal [i.e. Nikrashim] then if one roasts the chicken it is considered as if the [chicken[14] was] cooked in a pot and hence even Bedieved [everything[15] is] forbidden unless one salted both the chicken and meat stuffing for blood[16] [separately[17]] prior to the roasting. [If the meat stuffing contains 60x versus the egg stuffing it is considered as if it is only stuffed with meat and everything is permitted.[18]]
Summary-May one roast a stuffed chicken?
Stuffed with meat and other vegetation:
Bedieved: Even if the chicken and meat stuffing still contain blood [have not yet been salted for Shiur Melicha] nevertheless if one roasted them together everything is permitted. Furthermore even if the chicken was already salted already for its blood but the meat stuffing still contains blood everything remains permitted, although there are Poskim[19] that prohibit the food in such a case. If the meat stuffing was salted for blood but the chicken still contains blood then some Poskim rule everything remains permitted while others rule the inner stuffing is forbidden. Likewise in a case that one roasted chicken for its blood together with a vegetable stuffing this opinion would rule that the stuffing is forbidden.
Lechatchilah: According to the Michaber one may even initially roast chicken with stuffing. According to the Rama it is forbidden to roast chicken with stuffing if the chicken or stuffing still contains blood. However Bedieved we rule as above. [Practically even the Sefaradim are stringent not to initially roast stuffed chicken if the chicken contains blood, even if the stuffing is vegetables.[20]]
Stuffed with eggs:
It is forbidden to roast chicken that was never salted for its blood together with an egg stuffing and if one does so everything is forbidden. This applies even if the stuffing also contains meat and in such a case applies if either the chicken or meat stuffing have not been salted for their blood prior to the roasting.
Ruling of Sefaradim:[21] The chicken and the stuffing is always permitted even if roasted with an egg filling, just as is the law if it was roasted with a meat filling. [Some Poskim[22] rule that even Ashkenazim may be lenient like the Sefaradim in a case of great loss.]
Q&A
Is there a difference in law if the chicken is stuffed with egg batter versus whole eggs that contain a shell?
Some Poskim[23] rule that the above law regarding an egg stuffing [that the entire chicken becomes forbidden] only applies if the chicken is stuffed with a liquid batter of eggs. If however one places whole eggs that are within their shell in the chicken then although the eggs absorb the blood and become forbidden, the chicken itself is permitted, as the chicken is not considered to have been cooked within its blood.
Chart
|
|
Chicken and stuffing salted for blood |
Chicken salted not stuffing |
Stuffing salted not chicken |
Both not salted |
Stuffed with eggs and not salted |
|
Michaber |
Permitted even initially |
Permitted even initially |
—————— |
Permitted even initially |
Sefaradim: Same rule as previous cases |
|
Rama |
Permitted even initially |
Permitted Bedieved |
Permitted Bedieved |
Permitted Bedieved |
Forbidden |
|
Shach |
—————— |
—————— |
Stuffing is Forbidden |
Permitted Bedieved |
—————— |
|
Taz |
—————— |
Some Poskim prohibit even Bedieved |
—————— |
—————— |
—————— |
2. May one salt a stuffed chicken for its blood?[24]
A chicken or goat that contains a meat stuffing is forbidden to be salted together to remove its blood and rather one must salt the chicken and meat stuffing separately [on all their sides, including the inside of the chicken[25]]. [After Shiur Melicha one is to wash off the salt and external blood from the meat and chicken separately[26] and he may then cook or roast them together.[27]] The reason that one cannot salt the chicken with its meat stuffing together is because the salt that one places on the chicken will not remove the blood of the inner side [i.e. the meat stuffing[28]]. [However some[29] explain this to mean that it will not remove the blood that is in the inner side of the chicken itself, and certainly it will not remove the blood of the meat stuffing.[30] Accordingly even if the chicken is stuffed with pre-salted meat or food that does not contain blood it may not be salted together.[31] Practically even those that rule like the Michaber[32] are to be stringent like this opinion.[33] Certainly according to the ruling of the Rama[34] one must fully salt the chicken on all sides separately prior to the roasting.[35]]
Bedieved if one salted a stuffed chicken:[36] If one salted a stuffed chicken then [if it is within 12 hours of the salting one is to remove the stuffing and re-salt the chicken[37] although] the stuffing is forbidden being that it absorbed blood.[38]
Bedieved if one cooked the chicken:[39] If one salted a stuffed chicken and then cooked it [even if he cooked it without the stuffing according to the Rama[40]], then all the food in the pot is forbidden even if the stuffing did not contain blood.[41] [However in a case of great loss the food is permitted[42] if he cooked it without the stuffing[43], although according to the Taz[44] and Rashal seemingly even in such a case the food is forbidden.[45]]. If one cooked the chicken together with the stuffing then in all cases the food is forbidden irrelevant of whether the inner stuffing contained blood.[46]
Summary:
It is forbidden to salt stuffed chicken for its blood. This applies irrelevant of whether the stuffing itself contains blood or not. If one does so and then cooks the chicken everything is forbidden.
3. May one roast meat that does not contain blood together with meat that contains blood?[47]
Lechatchilah: It is initially forbidden to roast meat that has already been salted for its blood [and was washed or has finished its Tzir], together with meat that has not yet been salted for its blood, even if it has already been washed [Hadacha Rishona].
Bedieved: [Even] if one roasted meat that has already been salted for its blood and washed, together with meat that has not yet been salted for its blood and has not been washed [Hadacha Rishona], nevertheless the meat remains permitted.
Summary:
Lechatchilah one may not roast meat that has been salted for is blood together with meat that still contains blood, however Bedieved if one did so everything remains permitted.
Q&A
May one roast on a shish kebab unsalted meat with vegetables, such as onions[48]
One is not to initially roast meat that contains blood together with vegetables.[49]
Bedieved if roasted with onions: There are opinions[50] which rule that if one roasted unsalted meat together with onions on a skewer the [onions[51]] are forbidden.[52] Others[53] however rule that the onions are permitted. [54] Practically one who is stringent to forbid the onions is blessed.[55]
Bedieved if roasted other vegetables:[56] Everything is permitted.
[1] 77/1
[2] Rama ibid: “or Asavim”; Regarding onions-See Q&A!
[3] So is implied from the wording of the Michaber “If one is doing so for roasting it is permitted…” thus implying that it may be done even initially. [However practically even the Sefaradim are stringent like the Rama not to initially do so. Kaf Hachaim 77/9; Zivcheiy Tzedek 77/3; Shulchan Gavoa 77/2; Darkei Teshuvah 77/4; However see Peri Chadash 77/5 which says the custom is to be lenient like Michaber.]
[4] In other words although the chicken will certainly absorb the blood of the meat while roasting, nevertheless the same way it will absorb the blood it will likewise dispel the blood as Kebolo Kach Polto.
Reason why we prohibit meat that touched Tzir after it was salted: Although we rule [70/6] that meat which fell into Tzir after Shiur Melicha, or was salted with meat after Shiur Melicha, is forbidden, and it does not help to re-salt the meat nevertheless here [even according to the Rama] we are lenient as the fire expels the blood as soon as it is absorbed and does not give it time to remain inside the meat. [Taz 77/2; Shach 76/2; Peri Megadim 77 M.Z.2]
Other Opinions: The Beis Yosef records the Hagahos Maimanis which rules that if the chicken or goat was already salted for its blood and the meat stuffing was not salted for its blood then it is forbidden to roast them together and if one did so the food is forbidden. The Toras Chatas and Mordechai rule like this opinion. The Rashal rules that in such a case the meat stuffing is forbidden. [Taz 77/1]
[5] Shach 77/1; Peri Megadim 77 M.Z. 1
[6] Meaning even if it is filled with vegetables and not meat nevertheless Lechatchilah one may not roast them together if the chicken still contains blood.
[7] Although we rule [70/6] that meat which fell into Tzir after Shiur Melicha, or was salted with meat after Shiur Melicha, is forbidden, and it does not help to re-salt the meat nevertheless here [even according to the Rama] we are lenient as the fire expels the blood as soon as it is absorbed and does not give it time to remain inside the meat. [Taz 77/2; Shach 76/2; Peri Megadim 77 M.Z.2]
[8] Rama ibid; Darkei Moshe; Toras Chatas 9/3
[9] 77/1
[10] 76/2
[11] The reason for this is because the rule of Kebolo Kach Polto does not apply regarding the stuffing as since it is no longer giving off any blood it will absorb the blood from the chicken and not expel it out. [Shach ibid]
[12] Rama ibid; See also Rama 73/6; 76/2; Taz 72/10
Background of the laws of chicken with egg stuffing:
The first source that discusses the law of a chicken that is filled with eggs is the Mahrit [Mahriy Terushin] brought in the Hagahos Sheid [printed on page 27 in Shaareiy Dura Hashaleim]. There he novelizes that eggs congeal and prevent the blood of chicken from escaping. [See Yad Yehuda Aruch 77/7] This is unlike the plain ruling of all his predecessors such as the Rambam, Smag and Igur which permit all fillings and do not differentiate between eggs and others. The below ruling of the Rama is hence based on this ruling of the Mahrit in Hagahos Sheid.
Ruling of Sefaradi Poskim: The Michaber makes no mention of this differentiation of eggs and meat. The Peri Chadash 73/22; 77/3; Shulchan Gavoa 77/3; Zivcheiy Tzedek 77/8; Kaf Hachaim 73/70; 77/13 all rule that the Sefaradim rule like the Rambam and Smag that there is no difference in law regarding an egg stuffing and thus it has the same law as all stuffing in which case we rule that the food always remains permitted. Kreisy 77/2 rules that even Ashkenazim may be lenient like the Rambam against the Rama in a case of great loss.
[13] Shach 77/5; Taz 77/5
They establish the case to be dealing with a stuffing of eggs and meat together otherwise the wording of the Rama “until both were salted” would not make sense, as eggs do not have to be salted. The novelty here is that even if part of the stuffing is meat nevertheless the stuffing is considered as if it was cooked within the chicken due to the eggs and everything requires 60x versus the unsalted meat. Certainly if the chicken was stuffed with only eggs the chicken is considered cooked in its blood and is forbidden. [So is evident from the wording of the Mahrit brought in Hagahos Sheid that the chicken is forbidden as there he writes that the eggs prevent the blood of the chicken from leaving and hence it is considered as if the chicken was cooked in its blood. [Yad Yehuda Haaruch 77/7; and so is implied from Peri Megadim 77 M.Z. 4; See Q&A regarding eggs with shells] Now although from Shach 77/5 [which writes that if there is 60x in the filling versus “the Issur” than everything is permitted] it is implied that the entire issue is the blood of the meat stuffing and not of the chicken and hence if there is no meat with the eggs everything is permitted, the Darkei Teshuvah 77/6 writes that “the Issur” here refers to the eggs, meaning if there is 60x of meat stuffing versus the eggs everything is permitted as the eggs are nullified. However Tzaruch Iyun from Beir Heiytiv 77/6 which learns Shach as its simple implication that the Issur means the meat stuffing.]
Opinion of Rashal: The Rashal [brought in Shach 77/5] rules that if the chicken is stuffed with eggs and meat then if the chicken was salted for its blood together with this filling then we view the entire stuffing like it is eggs. If however the chicken was not salted with the stuffing but was roasted together then the stuffing is viewed as meat. The Shach 77/5 negates this opinion of the Rashal and rules as above that there is never a difference between only eggs and eggs with meat and so rules Rama in 73/6. The Rashal [printed in Mechonos-Ateres Shlomo on Shaareiy Dura] brings that he discussed this issue with the Rama face to face and the Rama argued on his opinion. The Rashal there goes on to defend his opinion against the opinion of the Rama.
[14] Yad Yehuda Haaruch 77/7
[15] Including the chicken, as the chicken is considered cooked in the blood. [Yad Yehuda Haaruch 77/7; See previous footnotes]
[16] Meaning whether the meat stuffing contains blood but not the chicken or the chicken contains blood but not the meat stuffing either way the same law applies and everything is forbidden if the filling contains eggs. [Peri Megadim 77 M.Z. 4]
[17] Taz 77/5; See Q&A
[18] Shach 77/5; Darkei Teshuvah 77/6
Background:
The Shach 77/5 writes that if there is 60x in the filling versus “the Issur” than everything is permitted. At first glance it is implied that this means that if the eggs contain 60x the blood of the meat stuffing everything is permitted. The Beir Heiytiv 77/6 asks on this why we don’t rule that the meat stuffing which contains blood is forbidden even with 60x against it just like we rule in 69/11 regarding one who cooked meat that was not salted even if there is 60x. in answer of this question the Darkei Teshuvah 77/6 establishes that “the Issur” here refers to the eggs, meaning if there is 60x of meat stuffing versus the eggs then everything is permitted as the eggs are nullified. [Another reason one cannot establish the case to mean 60x the stuffed meat is because we already established that if the chicken was not salted for blood then it itself is considered to be cooked in its blood and hence what relevant does it make if there is 60x the meat stuffing in the eggs if the chicken itself has not yet been salted.]
[19] See footnotes in Michaber Halacha 1A “other opinions”
[20] Kaf Hachaim 77/9; Zivcheiy Tzedek 77/3; Shulchan Gavoa 77/2; Darkei Teshuvah 77/4; However see Peri Chadash 77/5 which says the custom is to be lenient like Michaber
[21] Peri Chadash 73/22; 77/3; Shulchan Gavoa 77/3; Zivcheiy Tzedek 77/8; Kaf Hachaim 73/70; 77/13; See Background written in previous footnotes.
[22] Kreisy 77/2
[23] Yad Yehuda Katzar 77/10; Aruch 77/7; Darkei Teshuvah 77/7
[24] Michaber 77/1
[25] As explained in 69/4 that the chicken or meat must be salted on all their sides. [Shach 77/4]
[26] He may not first stuff the chicken and then wash it as the inside of the chicken will still retain its salt and external blood.
[27] Shach 77/3; Taz 77/3; If one does not wash the meat and chicken from their blood then it is considered as if he cooked the meat without Hadacha Achrona. [Shach ibid]
[28] Taz 77/4
[29] Rashal brought in Taz 77/4
[30] Now although the Michaber rules that Bedieved if one only salted one side of the chicken it is permitted, nevertheless here he is stringent as there is a stuffing pressing on the inside of the chicken which prevents the blood from escaping. [Taz 77/4]
[31] Meaning even according to the Rama and Taz which were lenient to permit roasting the chicken for its blood together with stuffing that was already salted for its blood, nevertheless based on the Rashal by salting they are stringent. In truth however this prohibition is not dependent on this ruling of the Rashal as according to all one may not salt meat for its blood together with meat that has already been salted as explained in 70/6 and if one does so the pre-salted meat is forbidden according to the Rama. Hence the novelty here is that even according to the Michaber this may not be done, or that even if the meat stuffing still contains salt and is giving off Tzir, nevertheless one may not salt them together due to the reason of the Rashal. [See Peri Megadim 77 M.Z. 4]
[32] The Michaber rules in 69/4 that if one only salted one side of the meat the meat is permitted Bedieved.
[33] Taz 77/4
[34] In 69/4 that one must salt all sides of the meat or chicken and even Bedieved the food is forbidden. [See Chapter 69 Halacha 8B]
[35] Shach 77/4
[36] Shach 77/2
[37] See Shach 77/4; Rama 69/4; Chapter 69 Halacha 8B
[38] This applies even if the stuffing was not yet salted for its blood and is not similar to our ruling in 71/6 that one may salt meat that absorbed blood from another piece, as a stuffing absorbs blood in greater quality and this blood cannot be removed. [Shach ibid]
[39] Based on Shach 77/4 and Peri Megadim 77 S.D. 4
[40] However if he cooked it with the stuffing then even according to the Michaber all the food is forbidden as the stuffing absorbed blood from the chicken and is similar to the case mentioned in 70/6 in which we rule that even according to the Michaber which is lenient one must re-salt the stuffing to remove the blood. This applies regardless of whether the stuffing is meat or another food.
[41] As this is similar to one who salted only one side of the meat of which the Rama rules the meat is forbidden. [ibid]
[42] So is implied from the Shach ibid which compares this case to a case of one who only salted one side of the meat in which case we rule that Bedieved one may be lenient in a case of great loss. [Peri Megadim 77 S.D. 4]
[43] As if he cooked it with the stuffing then according to all the food is forbidden as the stuffing absorbed blood from the chicken, as explained in previous footnotes.
[44] 77/4
[45] Peri Megadim 77 S.D. 4; As the Taz rules that even according to the Michaber one may not salt with a stuffing even if the stuffing does not contain blood and even Bedieved it is forbidden, hence implying it is not at all dependent on the dispute in 69/4 and thus one cannot use the ruling there to be lenient in a case of great loss.
[46] If the stuffing is meat which was never salted to remove its blood then according to all the food is forbidden being that the blood in the stuffing does not come out with the salt that is on the chicken. Furthermore even if it does not contain blood it is forbidden being it absorbed the blood of the chicken during the salting, as explained in previous footnotes.
[47] Rama 77/1
[48] See Beir Heiytiv 77/5; Peri Megadim 77 S.D. 5; Darkei Teshuvah 77/5
Hakashrus 9/99 rules one may roast meat that contains blood together with vegetables. This ruling is inaccurate as seen from the sources below.
[49] As rules Rama 77/1 that one is not initially to roast stuffed chicken even if with a vegetables stuffing. [Peri Chadash 77/5] and so is also the custom of the Sefaradim [Kaf Hachaim 77/9; Zivcheiy Tzedek 77/3; Shulchan Gavoa 77/2; Darkei Teshuvah 77/4; However see Peri Chadash 77/5 which says the custom is to be lenient like Michaber and so rules Yabia Omer 5/5]
[50] Rashdam 46; Shvus Yaakov 3/67; Peri Megadim 78 S.D. 2 [In 77 S.D. 5 he does not give a final ruling]
[51] However the meat is permitted as we apply the rule of Kibolo Kach Polto. [Kneses Hagedola 76; Peri Megadim 78 S.D. 2; Darkei Teshuvah ibid]
[52] As the onions are Charif and also congeal similar to eggs. [Darkei Teshuvah 77/5; Peri Megadim 77 S.D. 5]
[53] Peri Chadash 77/5; Mekor Baruch 36
[54] As the vegetables will dissipate any blood which they absorb.
[55] Beir Heiytiv ibid
[56] Peri Megadim 77 S.D. 5 as rules Rama 77/1
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