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4. May one knead a food which was already kneaded?[1]
A food or material that was already kneaded does not contain a kneading prohibition to be re-kneaded[2] unless the food has now become dry[3], or if further kneading will benefit the food to make it into a thick batter.[4] Even in a case that the kneading prohibition does not apply, one must still perform the kneading with certain irregularities, as will be explained. The following law in the Shulchan Aruch deals with two cases: 1) kneading a food on Shabbos that was not kneaded before Shabbos but had liquid placed into it, and 2) Kneading a food on Shabbos that was kneaded before Shabbos and one is now kneading in more liquid to make it thinner.
A. If water was simply placed in the mixture from before Shabbos, but was not kneaded into it:[5]
To make a thick batter is forbidden in all circumstances [according to the second opinion] due to that it is considered kneading unless one already placed the liquid [in the flour and the like] from before Shabbos in which case [according to the second opinion mentioned above] it is permitted to knead it on Shabbos (little by little[6] [or through another irregularity[7] such as using one’s finger[8]]) whether with roasted flour or with Shesisa.[9] The reason for this is because if the water was placed in from before Shabbos, kneading it on Shabbos does not contain a Biblical prohibition but rather a Rabbinical[10] prohibition, which was permitted through making it with an irregularity in the form explained above.[11] [The above law refers to an un-kneadable material.[12] However if it is a kneadable material then some Poskim[13] rule that according to the first opinion mentioned in Halacha 1, it is Biblically forbidden to knead it into a thick batter even if the water was placed in before Shabbos. Furthermore, some Poskim[14] rule that if it is a kneadable material then it is Biblically forbidden to knead into a thick batter even according to the second opinion mentioned here. Practically we are stringent like all opinions in this matter, and hence one may not knead kneadable material into a thick batter even if liquid was placed into before Shabbos.[15] However regarding un-kneadable material, if the liquid was placed into it before Shabbos then all opinions agree that it is permitted to knead it on Shabbos into a thick batter using the stated mixing irregularities.[16] It is permitted to even add more liquid to this food on Shabbos, and mix it in with the stated irregularities.[17] However in such a case one may not use a spoon to mix it[18], while when mixing in the original liquid some Poskim[19] rule one may use a spoon to mix it slowly.]
B. If water was kneaded into the mixture from before Shabbos:[20]
[Even] according to the first opinion, mustard [or any other material, whether kneadable or not kneadable] which one kneaded [with liquid[21]] from before Shabbos is allowed to be mixed with liquids the next day [on Shabbos] whether by hand or with a spoon[22] and have honey or [or any other liquid[23]] placed in it so long as one does not mix it strongly and rather mixes it little by little [i.e. slowly][24].[25] [See Q&A] [One may knead it with liquid on Shabbos even into a thick batter[26], and may enter the liquid into it in the regular order followed during the week. Practically however, one may not use a spoon to mix it.[27] Likewise, the above only applies to a product that is still moist on Shabbos due to the liquid that was mixed in. If, however, the product has dried, such as it was baked after the kneading on Erev Shabbos, then the kneading prohibition fully applies to this product, and it may only be made into a thin batter following the irregularities required by the Sages.[28]]
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Summary: One did not knead the added water before Shabbos: By un-kneadable materials one may mix with an irregularity the liquid that was added before Shabbos into the material even if one will make a thick batter. It is to be mixed slowly [and a spoon may be used for this mixing[29]]. One may also add liquid to it and make it into a thick batter [although if one is adding more liquid to it, then a spoon may not be used, and one thus needs to mix it with his hands[30]]. However, by kneadable materials one is to be stringent not to knead it at all into a thick batter [even in a time of need[31]].[32] If one kneaded the water into the food before Shabbos: If the food was kneaded before Shabbos [and still remains moist] then according to all one may add water or any other liquid[33] to the food on Shabbos and knead it with one’s fingers [as opposed to with a spoon[34]] even if it will be a thick batter. [This applies even by a kneadable material.[35] However, the above only applies to a product that is still moist on Shabbos due to the liquid that was mixed in. If however the product has dried, such as it was baked after the kneading on Erev Shabbos, then the kneading prohibition fully applies to this product, and it may only be made into a thin batter following the irregularities required by the Sages.] Q&A How much liquid must be added to a food before Shabbos to consider it previously kneaded? It does not suffice to add/knead a few mere drops into the food before Shabbos.[36] However it suffices to put/knead in a small amount of liquid.[37] Definition of small amount:[38] One needs to add enough liquid so that the entire food became wet due to it, and that it be enough to make the food pasty enough to be used as a dip. If water was placed in but was not enough to turn the food from a solid into a dip, it is forbidden to add liquid to it on Shabbos [unless made into a thin batter with an irregularity]. Nevertheless if a few drops sufficed to turning it into a dip, then this too would be considered already kneaded.[39]
May one add more food into a mixture that was kneaded before Shabbos in order to thicken it?[40] No, as by doing so one is kneading that added substance which was not previously kneaded.
May one mix a foods own liquids into the food if it becomes one unit? Some Poskim[41] rule it is permitted to do so. Other Poskim[42] rule it is forbidden to do so. Practically, one is to be stringent.[43] However this only applies if the food was not kneaded with this liquid before Shabbos.[44] · Ground garlic: If ground garlic secreted liquids the following is the law regarding if one may mix that liquid into the garlic on Shabbos. If the garlic was ground on Shabbos in a permitted way it is forbidden to mix in its extracted liquids on Shabbos.[45] If, however, one crushed the garlic before Shabbos, it is permitted to knead in the liquid on Shabbos using an irregularity, [such as one’s finger or doing slowly with a spoon[46]]. · Peanut or Tehina oil:[47] It is permitted to slowly mix with a spoon[48] oil which floats on top of peanut butter into the peanut butter.[49] · Tuna oil: May one mix tuna with its oil? One may mix the oil into the tuna with an irregularity[50], doing so slowly even with a spoon.[51]
May one add liquid on Shabbos to a mixture which was previously kneaded with only its own liquids?[52]
Some Poskim[53] rule is forbidden to be done on Shabbos [unless made into a thin batter with an irregularity]. Other Poskim[54] rule it is permitted to be done on Shabbos. Practically one is to be stringent.[55] Regarding if one may knead a foods own liquid into the food on Shabbos, such as mixing the peanut butter oil into the peanut butter-See previous Q&A there!
May one add liquid to one’s dip which was kneaded with liquid before Shabbos if it is now dry?[56] No[57] [unless made into a thin batter with an irregularity].
Q&A on baked foods Does the Lisha prohibition apply to baked foods? Some Poskim[58] rule that according to some[59] opinions the Biblical kneading prohibition does not apply to baked or cooked foods.[60] Nevertheless, even according to this opinion it remains Rabbinically forbidden to do so, and thus may only be done with the irregularities listed by the Sages.[61] Practically, even baked products must follow the regular kneading rules and hence may only be made into a thin mixture following the irregularities listed by the Sages.[62] This applies even if the baked product was previously kneaded with water prior to the baking.[63]
May one knead an already kneaded item that has now become a solid, such as bread/crackers and the like?[64] No. The kneading prohibition applies even to a kneaded baked item. Thus, one may not add water/wine/oil to bread and then knead it with one’s hands, unless done in a way permitted above [i.e. a thin batter with an irregularity].
May one dip a piece of bread in soup or a biscuit in tea/coffee?[65] One is allowed to dip a piece of bread in the soup.[66] Nevertheless, one may not knead the bread together with the liquid [unless making it into a thin batter, using an irregularity]
May one break his bread/biscuits into pieces and place them into his soup/tea?[67] This may only be done without restriction if one places in large pieces of bread or crackers which will float above the liquid. If, however, one desires to mix them together, or is placing in small pieces of bread or crackers, it may only be done mixture will be kneaded into thin batter, using an irregularity. Q&A on cooked foods Does the Lisha prohibition apply to cooked foods?[68] Some Poskim[69] rule that the kneading prohibition does not apply to cooked foods and does not even require an irregularity upon being kneaded.[70] Other Poskim[71] rule that it applies to cooked foods and hence one may only knead it [even into a thick batter[72]] using a Shinuiy. Practically, if the cooked dish contains many small pieces which stick to each other, such as cooked rice and the like, then it may be kneaded without a Shinuiy even into a thick batter even if the food is dry.[73] Furthermore, there are opinions[74] which permit kneading without a Shinuiy all cooked foods which are now soft and easily mash-able even if the pieces are currently not sticking together and will become a thick batter due to the kneading.[75] Other Poskim[76] argue on this conclusion.
May one add liquid to a cooked dish on Shabbos if doing so will make it into a thick batter? This follows the same answer as above, and hence if the food is not currently a single unit, it should be done with an irregularity.
May one knead gravy into mashed potatoes? Yes, as the potatoes have already been kneaded with water when cooked.
May one add soup to his rice/lentils/chulent if doing so will make it into a thick batter?[77] Yes, this may be done even if the food is dry, as explained in Halacha 5 Q&A.
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[1] 321:16; Michaber 321:15-16; Sefer Hateruma; See Shabbos Kehalacha 22:32-35 and Biurim 17 for all the below points to be mentioned.
[2] Admur and Michaber 321:15 as explained in Biur Halacha 321:15 “Yachol Learbavo”; Toras Shabbos 321:22; Har Tzevi Lash 2; Maharsham 7:7; Tehila Ledavid 321:20; Iglei Tal Lash 14; See Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 1 and footnote 6
Rabbinical prohibition: Some Poskim rule that there is nevertheless a Rabbinical prohibition involved in doing Lisha, and hence it may only be done with the Shinuyim recorded here. [Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 6; Arugas Habosem 80:9]
[3] Taz 321:11; Tehila Ledavid ibid; Iglei Tal ibid; Har Tzevi ibid; Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 12
[4] Biur Halacha 321:14 “Ein Megablin”; Ketzos Hashulchan ibid
Other opinions: Some Poskim rule that even in such a case the kneading prohibition does not apply. [Iglei Tal Lash 6 brought in Ketzos Hashulchan ibid; Chazon Ish 58:5; see Har Tzevi 1:193]
[5] 321:16 and 324:3; Michaber 321:15-16; Sefer Hateruma
[6] Seemingly this means to do so slowly, as brought in Michaber 321:15 and M”B 321:62; This would be permitted even with a spoon. [Magen Avraham 321:21; M”B 321:62 that when mixing in the original liquid that was placed before Shabbos a spoon may be used even according to the Rama.] Vetzaruch Iyun from Admur; See Biur Halacha 321:15 “Veyeish Omrim”
[7] Admur 324:3
[8] M”B 321:64
[9] Admur 321:16
[10] From here we can learn that kneading an already kneaded item still contains a Rabbinical kneading prohibition, and hence requires the mixing irregularities mentioned above. [Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 13]
[11] Admur 324:3
The reason: As according to this opinion, placing the water into the material already considers the mixture to have been kneaded, and hence one is not doing any extra act through mixing it. [M”B 321:64] Furthermore, by un-kneadable materials, there is no further action that can be done as the entering of the water accomplishes the entire kneading. [See Biur Halacha 321:14 “Ein Megablin”] However according to the former opinion that only actually kneading the water is considered kneading, than it is only allowed to be done with un-kneadable material, as explained above, and even then only with an irregularity, which is defined as kneading it with one’s hand, or by shaking the bowl. However, kneadable material is forbidden to initially knead on Shabbos into a thick batter even with an irregularity.
[12] Morson is an un-kneadable material, see also Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 11 that mustard is an un-kneadable material
[13] See Biur Halacha 321:15 “Yachol Learvo” and Shabbos Kehalacha Tosefes Biur 22:10; The Biur Halacha ibid states that in this matter [of liquid placed in before Shabbos] the opinion of Rebbe Yossi and Rambam is stricter than the opinion of Rebbe Yehuda and Sefer Hateruma.
The reason: As according to the first opinion it is only considered kneading when one kneads the water into the material and hence if one does so on Shabbos to a kneadable material he Biblcially transgresses irrelevent of whether the water was placed into the material before Shabbos, and it is hence forbidden to initially knead it on Shabbos even with an irregularity. [See Biur Halacha ibid]
Other opinions: Some Poskim rule that if liquid was placed before Shabbos then according to Rebbe Yossi there is no prohibition to further knead it even by kneadable material, as even in his opinion the prohibition is only when one performs both steps of adding the water and mixing it. [Iglei Tal Lash 2 brought in Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 12; See Shabbos Kehalacha Tosefes Biur 22:10] Nevertheless this opinion holds that according to Rebbe Yehuda there is a Biblical prohibition involved by kneadable materials according to Rebbe Yehuda, as brought next. Hence, according to all approaches, there is one opinion [either Rebbe Yehuda or Rebbe Yossi] that holds there remains a Biblical prohibition to knead the water into kneadable material. The practical ramifications between who holds of this opinion is regarding if one may be lenient in a time of need, as rules Rebbe Yossi. [see coming footnotes]
[14] Biur Halacha 321:14 “Ein Megablim” based on Yerushalmi; Iglei Tal Lash 4, brought in Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 12; Implication of Admur in Rebbe Yehuda which writes “
The reason: Even according to Rebbe [second opinion] the above Poskim rule that there a Biblical prohibition to knead a kneadable material mixture that had the liquid placed in it before Shabbos, but was not kneaded. The reason for this is because the kneading process is not complete until the liquid is actually kneaded into the food and thus even according to Rebbe there is a Biblical prohibition involved to knead the mixture together. However, by un-kneadable material there is no further action that can be done through the kneading, as the entering of the water accomplishes the entire kneading. [See Biur Halacha 321:14 “Ein Megablim” based on Yerushalmi; Iglei Tal Lash 4, brought in Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 12]
Other opinions: Other Poskim rule that there is no Biblical prohibition involved in further kneading it according to Rebbe even by kneadable materials. [Chazon Ish 58:5; See Shabbos Kehalacha Tosefes Biur 22:10]
[15] Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 1 and 12
In a time of need: Some Poskim rule that in a time of need one may knead even kneadable material on Shabbos if liquid was placed into it before Shabbos. [Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 12] This is based on the Iglei Tal Lash 2 which rules that according to Rebbe Yossi there is no Biblical prohibition involved in doing so, and in a time of need one may be lenient like Rebbe Yossi over Rebbe Yehuda, as rules the Taz 321:12. However according to the other opinions [Biur Halacha ibid] which rule that according to Rebbe Yossi there remains a Biblical prohibition against doing so, then it is forbidden to do so even in a time of need, as we do not rule like Rebbe Yehuda in a time of need. Practically, one is to be stringent in this matter. [Sheveit Halevi 3:50; See Piskeiy Teshuvos 321:19; See Shabbos Kehalacha Tosefes Biur 22:10]
[16] If the material is not a kneadable material, then there is no Biblical prohibition in mixing it in according to Rebbe or Rebbe Yossi [Chazon Ish 58:5], being that its complete form of kneading has already been accomplished according to Rebbe, and according to Rebbe Yossi there is never a Biblical prohibition involved in kneading un-kneadable materials. However according to Rebbe Yossi there is still a Rabbinical prohibition involved in doing so, being in his opinion the Sages decreed against kneading un-kneadable products and this product has never yet been kneaded, and it hence must be done with the irregularities. [See Biur Halacha 321:15 “Yachol Learbavo”; Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 12; Shabbos Kehalacha Tosefes Biur 22:10] Furthermore, even according to Rebbe there is a Rabbinical prohibition involved in doing so being Rabbinically it is forbidden to re-knead a food that was kneaded before Shabbos, and hence in conclusion according to all one must perform the kneading of this liquid through the above-mentioned irregularities. [See Admur 324:3; Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 13]
Why one is not required to perform the irregularity of Mi Techila according to Rebbe Yossi? Seemingly the reason for this is because the liquid was already entered into the food and hence this irregularity is no longer relevant. Furthermore, perhaps in such a case everyone agrees that one irregularity suffices.
[17] M”B 321:64
[18] M”B ibid; Ketzos Hashulchan 130:3 and footnote 13
Other opinions: However, the Igleiy Tal argues and allows to mix it slowly with a spoon even in such a case.
[19] Magen Avraham 321:21; M”B 321:62 that when mixing in the original liquid that was placed before Shabbos a spoon may be used even according to the Rama. Vetzaruch Iyun from Admur 324:2; See Biur Halacha 321:15 “Veyeish Omrim” who questions this ruling
[20] 321:16; Michaber 321:15 regarding mustard and 321:16 regarding Shiclim/Lepidum and garlic; Shabbos 140a regarding all three
[21] Biur Halacha 321:15 “Yachol Learbavo”; This means that it was kneaded with liquid from before Shabbos, and it is hence permitted to add water to it on Shabbos being there is no kneading after kneading as it simply makes the food liquidier like a drink. [Biur Halacha 321:15 “Yachol Learbavo”]
Other opinions-Kneaded with its own liquid: Some Poskim rule that according to Rebbe Yossi/Rambam [first opinion] it is permitted to knead the mustard on Shabbos even if it was not kneaded before Shabbos with other liquids, and simply with its own moisture. [Taz 321:14; P”M 321 M”Z 13; Elya Raba brought in M”B 321:58; See Biur Halacha ibid] Perhaps this is because it is made into a thin batter, or perhaps it is because mustard is not Bar Gibbul. However, the simple implication of this ruling is that even a thick batter is permitted, and hence one must establish that it is not Bar Gibbul, and for it to apply according to all opinions in Rebbe Yossi one must say it was fully kneaded before Shabbos with other liquids. Furthermore, even by a thin batter we require it to be done with the irregularities stated by the Sages, as brought in Michaber 321:14 and hence one must establish the case to refer to a pre-kneaded food. [Biur Halacha ibid] Alternatively however one can explain that the above Poskim learn in the Michaber that a food that was kneaded with its own juice is considered fully kneaded, and there is no kneading after kneading. [See Tehila Ledavid 321:21] Howevre it is clear that the M”B does not accept this opinion
[22] The Ketzos Hashulchan [130 footnote 9 and 13] brings from the Mishneh Berurah [321:62 and 64] that one may only use one’s fingers to mix it. This follows the ruling of Admur regarding Charoses, brought in the next Halacha. Apparently, the reason why here Admur writes that a spoon may be used is because he is following the ruling of the Michaber at this point in the text, which allows a spoon to be used. However, in the remaining part of the text, which was lost, perhaps Admur brought down the Rama which forbids its use. This would explain why there is no contradiction between the ruling of Admur here and the ruling by Charoses. Alternatively, however one can explain that Admur holds that only when one is adding liquid for the first time, as is the case by Charoses, a spoon may not be used, although when simply adding more liquid on Shabbos, as is the case here, then perhaps a spoon can be used. [See Ketzos ibid in name of Iglei Tal] Practically the Mishneh Berurah [321:64] and Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 13 rule the Rama’s ruling to not use a spoon applies equally by both cases.
[23] So is proven from the fact Admur mentions above “with liquids………..honey……….”.
[24] This is required because even further kneading a material that was kneaded before Shabbos is Rabbinically forbidden unless done with an irregularity. [Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 13]
Other opinions: Some Poskim rule that a previously kneaded food does not require an irregularity upon being kneaded. [So rule regarding cooked foods-Beis Yosef in name of Teshuvos HaRambam; Taz 321:14; brought also in M”A 321:28] Practically, the Poskim negate this opinion. [M”A 321:28; Bach; Elya Raba 321:28; Chayeh Adam 20:21; Kaf Hachaim 321:134]
[25] The reason: As there is no Lisha after Lisha. [See Toras Shabbos 321:22; Har Tzevi Lash 2; Maharsham 7:7; Tehila Ledavid 321:20; Iglei Tal Lash 14] Alternatively, the reason is because this is not considered Lisha at all but rather a dilution, as Lisha is only when one causes solids to stick together through the adding of liquid and here the opposite is accomplished. [Biur Halacha 321:15 “Yachol”]
[26] Ketzos Hashulchan 130:3 as is evident from Admur 321:16 in the second opinion
[27] Mishneh Berurah 321:62 and 64; Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 9 and 13
[28] Taz 321:11; Tehila Ledavid ibid; Iglei Tal ibid; Har Tzevi ibid; Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 12
[29] Magen Avraham 321:21; M”B 321:62 that when mixing in the original liquid that was placed before Shabbos a spoon may be used even according to the Rama. Vetzaruch Iyun from Admur 324:2; See Biur Halacha 321:15 “Veyeish Omrim” who questions this ruling
[30] M”B 321:64; Ketzos Hashulchan 130:3 and footnote 13
[31] Explained in previous footnotes
[32] Biur Halacha “Ein Megablin” according to Rebbe Yehuda and “Yachol Learbo” according to Rebbe Yossi; Igleiy Tal Lash 14 according to Rebbe Yehuda
The explanation: See previous footnotes that a) According to Biur Halacha this is Biblically forbidden according to Rebbe Yossi and b) According to some Poskim this is Biblically forbidden [also, or only] according to Rebbe Yehuda.
[33] So is proven from the fact Admur mentions above “with liquids………..honey……….”.
[34] Ketzos Hashulchan 130:3 and footnote 13. See explanation in previous footnote.
[35] So seems logical from the above ruling by mustard, even though mustard is not necessarily considered kneadable material, and so rules SS”K Chapter 20 Halacha 7.
[36] M”A 321:23; Taz 321:13 based on Terumos Hadeshen; Elya Raba 321; M”B 321:65; Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 11
[37] Taz ibid; M”B ibid; Biur Halacha 321:15 “Davka” that so agrees also M”A ibid
Other opinions: Some Poskim rule that it does not suffice to put in a small amount. [Beir Heiytiv 321:20 in M”A ibid] The Biur Halacha ibid argues on this understanding
[38] Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 11; See also Iglei Tal 14; Shevisas Hashabbos Lash 2; Chazon Ish 58:5; Piskeiy Teshuvos 321:25
[39] Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 12
[40] SSH”K 8:7
[41] Chazon Ish 58:8-9; Shevisas Hashabbos Lash 8-9; Igros Moshe 4:74 Lash 2; Everyone agrees that according to the second opinion doing so is not considered kneading and would thus be permitted. The reason for this is because they hold that the main aspect of kneading is the adding of ingredients, and here no ingredients were added, as the food naturally came with it.
[42] Tehila Ledavid 321:21 and 29; Ketzos Hashulchan 130:3 footnote 8 in name of Igleiy Tal 30 that according to the first opinion mentioned, doing so is considered kneading and is thus forbidden. The reason for this is because according to the first opinion the prohibition of kneading is simply to join two items into one, which is accomplished even when kneading food with its own liquid. However according to the second opinion doing so is not considered kneading and would thus be permitted. The reason for this is because they hold that the main aspect of kneading is the adding of ingredients, and here no ingredients were added, as the food naturally came with it. The final ruling: As was explained above we are stringent like both opinions, and thus this may not be done.
[43] Piskeiy Teshuvos 321:24
[44] SSH”K 8:7
[45] Tehila Ledavid 321:21 and 29; Ketzos Hashulchan 130:3 footnote 8 in name of Igleiy Tal
[46] M”B 321:62 in the name of the Magen Avraham 321:22 that when mixing in the original liquid that was placed before Shabbos a spoon may be used even according to the Rama.
[47] So rules SSH”K 8:7
[48] M”B [62] in the name of the Magen Avraham [22] that when mixing in the original liquid that was placed before Shabbos a spoon may be used even according to the Rama.
[49] This is allowed to be done being that the butter is considered to have been kneaded from before Shabbos with its oil of which some still remains within the mixture, of which the law is that one may add its liquid to it on Shabbos, as will be explained in Halacha 5. [SSH”K ibid]
Adding in other liquids: SSH”K ibid allows one to add other liquids as well to the peanut butter based on their understanding [in Biur Halacha 321 Yachol Learvo”] that adding liquid is allowed when one intends to make a food thinner as, kneading only applies when one desires to thicken the food. Vetzaruch Iyun Gadol from what will be explained in Practical Q&A, as well as in Halacha 5 Q&A, that the mixing of a foods own liquid before Shabbos does not consider it mixed, and thus there would remain no allowance to enter other liquids into the peanut butter. Furthermore, the ruling there in Biur Halacha is referring to adding water to an already kneaded food as then one destroys the kneading that was already done, and does not apply when a food was never yet kneaded. This is in addition to that SSH”K contradict themselves later regarding Tehina, that one may not add liquids to it. See also Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 19 which brings up such a logic that thinning a food is not considered kneading, although he concludes one may not rely on this as we see even by radishes the Taz was stringent to require a Shinui. Despite the above to enter the peanut oil into the butter would be allowed even in accordance to the ruling there as according to both opinions there once the oil has been mixed into it before Shabbos, entering back its own oil is not problematic-see there!
[50] As the oil was already placed within the tuna from before Shabbos, and tuna is not a kneadable material. [See Halacha 4 and Q&A there]
[51] M”B [62] in the name of the Magen Avraham [22] that when mixing in the original liquid that was placed before Shabbos a spoon may be used even according to the Rama.
[52] Ketzos Hashulchan 130:3 footnote 8 in name of Igleiy Tal; So rules also Chazon Ish 58:8-9. Vetzaruch Iyun Gadol on the SSH”K 8:7 which permits adding liquid to peanut butter on the basis that it had already been kneaded with its oil, even in a case that the oil is floating. Vetzaruch Iyun Gadol.
[53] Tehila Ledavid 321:21 and Ketzos Hashulchan 130:3 footnote 8 in name of Igleiy Tal 30 that so is ruling according to Rebbe Yehuda, brought in Michaber 321:16; Implication of Biur Halacha 321 “Yachol Learbevo” which negates the explanation of P”M 321 M”Z 13 and implies that by Bar Gibul, even according to Rebbe Yossi there would be a prohibition in doing so; So rules also Chazon Ish 58:8-9; SSH”K regarding Techina however see SSH”K 8:7 who allows adding other liquids to the food even if it was not mixed with external liquid before Shabbos; See Piskeiy Teshuvos 321:25
The reason: This matter follows the same dispute as mentioned above [in Halacha 1]. According to the first opinion mentioned the mixture is already considered kneaded, and thus adding liquid is allowed. As according to the first opinion the prohibition of kneading is simply to join two items into one, which is accomplished even when kneading food with its own liquid. However according to the second opinion the mixture is not considered previously kneaded unless it was kneaded with a substance other than its own. As they hold that the main aspect of kneading is the adding of ingredients, and here no ingredients were added, as the food naturally came with it. Therefore, according to them in the above cases remain forbidden to add water on Shabbos to the mixture. The final ruling: As was explained above we are stringent like both opinions, and thus this may not be done [unless made into a thin batter with an irregularity]. To note that if the food is Bar Gibul, then according to some Poskim this would be forbidden even according to Rebbe Yossi, as explained above from M”B.
[54] Tehila Ledavid 321:21 that so is ruling of first opinion in Michaber 321:15 as explained in P”M 321 M”Z 13 [brought in M”B 321 and Biur Halacha ibid] that if the mustard was kneaded with its juice before Shabbos it may be kneaded even into a thick mixture on Shabbos with a Shinuiy; The following Poskim rule it is permitted if the liquid simply dilutes the food and does not make its pieces stick together: Or Letziyon 2:33-7 and many Rabbanim regarding Techina including Yalkut Yosef; Rav Avraham Yosef; Rav Dov Lior; See Biur Halacha “Yachol learvo” and SSH”K 8:7 for similar logic that by diluting there is no prohibition. To note however that the Biur Halacha ibid clearly refers to a food that was kneaded with a separate liquid before Shabbos, in which case diluting it is permitted, as Ein lash after lash. Likewise, according to Rebbe Yehuda that the Melacha is to join the liquid with the soild then here too it would be forbidden.
[55] SSH”K 8 regarding Techina; Shabbos Kehalacha 22:60 footnote 60 as we are initially stringent like the opinion of Rebbe Yehuda
[56] Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 12
[57] As this is similar to dough which has been turned into bread which contains a kneading prohibition as explained.
[58] Biur Halacha 321:14 “Shema Yavo” in opinion of Tosafus
[59] This refers to the opinion of Tosafus Shabbos 18a in Rebbe Yossi which is part of the 2nd opinion in Admur ibid; Vetzaruch Iyun if this would apply likewise according to the opinion of the Rambam, which is the first opinion in Admur ibid. However certainly it would not apply according to the opinion of Rebbe Yehuda [2nd opinion in Admur ibid], as he prohibits to knead roasted flour even with the irregularities, as brought in Shabbos 155b and Admur ibid.
[60] The reason: As the food is ready to be eaten in its current state, and hence adding water to it is not considered part of the Melacha of Lisha but rather as part of the eating process. [ibid]
[61] Biur Halacha ibid
[62] As according to Rebbe Yehuda baked products retain the Biblical prohibition [as seen from Shabbos 155b and Admur 321:16 regarding roasted flour], and initially we are stringent like the opinion of Rebbe Yehuda.
[63] Taz 321:11; Tehila Ledavid ibid; Iglei Tal ibid; Har Tzevi ibid; Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 12
[64] Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 1 and 6
[65] Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 6
[66] Doing so does not constitute kneading according to any opinion.
[67] Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 6; See also Chazon Ish 58:7 and Biur Halacha 321:12 “Lefareir Lechem”
[68] See Shabbos Kehalacha 22:12-13; Piskeiy Teshuvos 321:23
[69] Beis Yosef 321 in name of Teshuvos HaRambam brought also in M”A 321:28; Taz 321:14; Orchos Shabbos 6:13
Opinion of Michaber: The Michaber 321:19 permits to knead/mix a dish that came off the fire. It is however disputed amongst the Poskim here as to whether one must follow the kneading restrictions or not.
Opinion of Biur Halacha: The Biur Halacha 321:14 “Shema Yavo” states that that according to the opinion of Tosafus the Biblical kneading prohibition does not apply to cooked or baked foods. The reason for this is because the food is ready to be eaten in its current state, and hence adding water to it is not considered part of the Melacha of Lisha but rather as part of the eating process. Nevertheless, even according to this opinion it remains Rabbinically forbidden to do so, and thus may only be done with the irregularities listed by the Sages. Furthermore, according to Rebbe Yehuda baked products retain the Biblical prohibition, as he prohibits to knead roasted flour even with the irregularities, as brought in Shabbos 155b and Admur 321:16, and initially we are stringent like the opinion of Rebbe Yehuda. Practically, it seems that even according to the above novelty of the Biur Halacha he holds that cooked products must follow the regular kneading rules and hence may only be made into a thin mixture following the irregularities listed by the Sages.
[70] The reason: As the food is ready to be eaten in its current state, and hence adding water to it is not considered part of the Melacha of Lisha but rather as part of the eating process. [ibid]
[71] M”A 321:28; Bach; Elya Raba 321:28; Chayeh Adam 20:21; Kaf Hachaim 321:134
[72] The above Poskim that argue on the above opinion only rule that a Shinuiy is required, however do not require it to be made into a thin batter. Simply speaking, the reason for this is because we are discussing a food that had water placed in it before Shabbos [as it was cooked in water] and is of un-kneadable material, and hence according to all may be made into a thick batter using a Shinuiy.
[73] Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 12 regarding lentils, Chazon Ish 58:9
The reason: As the food is already considered kneaded, as it is currently a thick mixture which sticks to each other and is ready to be eaten, and thus the adding of liquid does not change its state of food.
[74] SSH”K 8:19, based on Chazon Ish 58:9 which writes that the same way that cooking a food removes its grinding restrictions it similarly removes its kneading restrictions. Nevertheless, the Chazon Ish limits this to case that the food is still moist. If however the food is now dry, he too agrees that it is forbidden; However based on the M”B in Biur Halacha “Shema Yavo” on Halacha 14, which writes that by cooked foods the kneading prohibition does not apply as adding liquid is considered the way of eating, then even if the food is now dry the prohibition would not apply. See previous footnotes regarding this matter.
The opinion of Admur regarding a dry food: He for certain does not hold of the M”B allowance to knead dry cooked foods, as stated regarding roasted flour which Admur rules according to the second opinion contains the kneading prohibition and thus may only be made into a thin batter. However regarding moist/soft cooked foods it is unclear what Admur would hold. From the Ketzos Hashulchan however it seems clear that he would not allow it, as he limits the allowance to add liquid to cooked dishes to cases where the particles of the food stick together and form a glob, such as in rice, and thus excludes kneading single cooked food into liquid.
[75] As they say that cooked, soft foods do not contain the kneading prohibition and thus one may add liquid to them and knead the liquid into it even into a thick batter, using the regular methods.
[76] Shabbos Kehalacha ibid; Piskeiy Teshuvos ibid
[77] Ketzos Hashulchan 130 footnote 12
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