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Introduction
One of the more confusing questions for travelers during the early winter concerns Vesein Tal Umatar Livracha. In Eretz Yisrael, the request for rain begins on the 7th of MarCheshvan, while in the Diaspora it begins considerably later, on the 60th day after Tekufas Tishrei, generally corresponding to the beginning of December. What, then, should a person do when traveling between Eretz Yisrael and the Diaspora during the weeks when one location is already requesting rain and the other is not?
The answer depends on several factors: where the person normally lives, where the person is presently located, whether Vesein Tal Umatar was already begun before traveling, and when the person plans to return home. These questions are subject to significant dispute amongst the Poskim. Practically, different rules apply to an Israeli visiting the Diaspora, a Diaspora resident visiting Israel, and one who changes locations after already beginning to say Vesein Tal Umatar.
The following guide organizes the various situations and provides the practical ruling for each case.
- From Eretz Yisrael to Diaspora
- If an Israeli traveled to the diaspora before the 7th of MarCheshvan is he to begin reciting Vesein Tal Umatar on the 7th of MarCheshvan in the diaspora?[1]
If an Israeli traveled to the diaspora before the 7th of MarCheshvan it is disputed amongst Poskim as to whether he is to begin reciting Visein Tal Umatar Livracha upon the arrival of the 7th of MarCheshvan.
The Dispute: Some Poskim[2] rule that if he plans to return to Eretz Yisrael within the year, then he is to recite Vesein Tal Umatar starting from the 7th of MarCheshvan as is done in Eretz Yisrael, his hometown.[3] If, however, he does not plan to return to Eretz Yisrael until after the passing of a year, [and certainly if he has decided to move to the Diaspora] then he is to recite it only starting from the 5th of December.[4] Other Poskim[5], however, rule a traveler is to always follow the area that he is currently in irrelevant of when he plans to return, and hence he does not begin to recite Vesein Tal Umatar until the 5th of December [or until he returns to Eretz Yisrael[6]].[7] This applies once he leaves the air space of Israel, even if he will be midflight from Israel during nightfall of the 7th of Marcheshvan.[8]
The Final Ruling: Practically, he is not to recite Vesein Tal Umatar in the blessing of Bareich Aleinu, but is to recite it in Shomeia Tefila starting from the 7th of MarCheshvan until the 5th of December.[9]
Chazan: If he is Chazan, then in his repetition of Shemoneh Esrei, he is to recite Vesein Bracha as is said in the Diaspora and not recite Visein Tal Umatar at all.[10] [There is no need for him to avoid being Chazan due to this reason.[11]]
Returns to Israel: If he returns to Eretz Yisrael before the 5th of December, then he is to begin reciting it in Bareich Aleinu as soon as he returns.[12]
Forgot to Recite: If the above individual forgot to mention it between the 7th of MarCheshvan and the 5th of December while in the Diaspora, he is not required to repeat Shemoneh Esrei.[13] However, some Poskim[14] suggest that he should Daven again as a Tefilas Nedava.
- If one traveled from Eretz Yisrael to the Diaspora between the 7th of MarCheshvon and the 5th December, is he to continue to say Vesein Tal Umatar in the Diaspora?
If one traveled from Eretz Yisrael to the Diaspora between the 7th of MarCheshvon and the 5th December, he is to continue to say Vesein Tal Umatar in the Diaspora.[15] This applies even if he traveled on the night of the 7th of MarCheshvan and Davened Maariv beforehand.[16]
Chazan: If he is Chazan, he is to recite Visein Tal Umatar in his private prayer, however, in his repetition of Shemoneh Esrei, he is to recite Vesein Bracha as is said in the Diaspora.[17] [There is no need for him to avoid being Chazan due to this reason.[18]]
Forgot to Recite: If one forgot to mention it between the 7th of MarCheshvan and the 5th of December while in the Diaspora, he is not required to repeat Shemoneh Esrei.[19] However, some Poskim[20] suggest that he should Daven again as a Tefilas Nedava.
- From Diaspora to Eretz Yisrael
- If one traveled to Israel before the 7th of MarCheshvan is he to begin reciting Vesein Tal Umatar on the 7th of MarCheshvan?[21]
If one traveled from the diaspora to Israel before the 7th of MarCheshvan it is disputed amongst Poskim as to whether he is to begin reciting Visein Tal Umatar Livracha upon the arrival of the 7th of MarCheshvan.
The Dispute: Some Poskim[22] rule that if he plans to return to the Diaspora within the year, then he is to recite Vesein Tal Umatar starting from the 5th of December as is done in the Diaspora, his hometown. If, however, he does not plan to return to the Diaspora until after the passing of a year, then he is to recite it starting from the 7th of MarCheshvan.[23] Other Poskim[24], however, rule a traveler is to always follow the area that he is currently in irrelevant of when he plans to return, and hence he begins to recite Vesein Tal Umatar on the 7th of MarCheshvan.[25]
The Final Ruling: Practically, he is to recite Vesein Tal Umatar in the blessing of Bareich Aleinu starting from the 7th of Mar Cheshvan, just like they do in Eretz Yisrael.[26]
Returns to Diaspora:[27] If, however, he returns to the Diaspora prior to the 5th of December, he is to stop reciting it.
Forgot to Recite:[28] If one forgot to mention it between the 7th of MarCheshvan and the 5th of December while in Eretz Yisrael, he is not required to repeat Shemoneh Esrei.
- Does one who traveled from the Diaspora to Eretz Yisrael between the 7th MarCheshvon and 5th December begin to say Vesein Tal Umatar in Eretz Yisrael?
This matter is subject to the same dispute mentioned in the previous Q&A. Practically, one who traveled from the Diaspora to Eretz Yisrael between the 7th MarCheshvon and the 5th December is to begin saying Vesein Tal Umatar in Bareich Aleinu as soon as he arrives to Eretz Yisrael.[29] However, some Poskim[30] rule that one should say it in Shomeia Tefila.
The Basic Dates
| Location | When Vesein Tal Umatar Begins |
| Eretz Yisrael | Maariv of the 7th of MarCheshvan |
| Diaspora | 60th day after Tekufas Tishrei, generally in early December |
Four Basic Travel Scenarios
| Scenario | Practical Direction |
| Israeli travels abroad before 7 MarCheshvan | Does not say Vesein Tal Umatar in Bareich Aleinu on 7 MarCheshvan; practically, inserts the request in Shomeia Tefilah until the Diaspora begins |
| Israeli began Vesein Tal Umatar and then traveled abroad | Continues saying Vesein Tal Umatar in Bareich Aleinu |
| Diaspora resident arrives in Israel before 7 MarCheshvan | Practically begins Vesein Tal Umatar in Bareich Aleinu on 7 MarCheshvan |
| Diaspora resident arrives in Israel after 7 MarCheshvan but before the Diaspora starting date | Practically begins Vesein Tal Umatar in Bareich Aleinu upon arrival |
Practical Examples
Example 1: Yossi Lives in Jerusalem and Travels to New York Before 7 MarCheshvan
Yossi lives permanently in Eretz Yisrael but travels to New York on 3 MarCheshvan and will remain there for several weeks.
When 7 MarCheshvan arrives, the local congregation is still saying Vesein Bracha.
Practically: Yossi should not begin saying Vesein Tal Umatar in Bareich Aleinu. Instead, during this interim period he should request rain in Shomeia Tefilah. When the regular Diaspora starting date arrives, he begins saying it in Bareich Aleinu.
Example 2: Moshe Began Saying Vesein Tal Umatar in Israel and Then Flew Abroad
Moshe was in Israel on 7 MarCheshvan and began saying Vesein Tal Umatar. A week later he travels to London.
Practically: Since he already began saying Vesein Tal Umatar, he continues saying it in his private Shemoneh Esrei even while abroad.
If he serves as Chazan, however, the repetition follows the local congregation, and he says Vesein Bracha rather than publicly changing from their Nusach.
Example 3: David From New York Arrives in Israel on 1 MarCheshvan
David normally lives in New York but will spend several weeks in Israel.
When 7 MarCheshvan arrives, the entire Israeli community begins requesting rain.
Practically: David begins saying Vesein Tal Umatar in Bareich Aleinu together with the congregation in Eretz Yisrael.
If he returns to the Diaspora before its normal starting date, he stops saying it upon his return.
Example 4: Shmuel Arrives in Israel on 15 MarCheshvan
Shmuel lives in the Diaspora and has not yet begun saying Vesein Tal Umatar. He flies to Israel on 15 MarCheshvan, when everyone in Israel is already saying it.
Practically: Upon arriving in Eretz Yisrael, he begins saying Vesein Tal Umatar in Bareich Aleinu.
Some Poskim take a different approach and recommend placing the request in Shomeia Tefilah, but the practical ruling presented here is to say it in Bareich Aleinu.
[1] See Beir Heiytiv 117:4; Kaf Hachaim 117:11; M”B 117:5; Piskeiy Teshuvos 117:3
[2] Peri Chadash 117:2 [brought in Beir Heiytiv and M”B ibid]; Maharikash in Erech Lechem 117 [even if does not plan to return during rain season, he does not mention a difference in the law if he does not plan to return until years later]; Halachos Ketanos 1:74 in name of Maharikash; Radaz 5:55 [that if plan to return during rain season, or if he has a wife and children in Israel, then is to say]; See Shalmei Tizbur p. 128; P”M 117 M”Z 1 in name of Peri Chadash ibid; Gloss of Rav Akiva Eiger 117 [Hachadashos]; Shulchan Hatahor 117:3; Toras Chaim Sofer 117:3; Igros Moshe 2:102; Dvar Yehoshua 2:14; Mishneh Shlomo 1:7; Vayeishev Moshe 1:102
[3] The reason: As since he lives in Eretz Yisrael, he needs the benefits that the rains brings him there. [See Vayeishev Moshe 1:102]
[4] Peri Chadash ibid; P”M ibid; See other Poskim ibid in previous footnote [Maharikash, Halachos Ketanos, Radbaz] who do not explicitly make this differentiation and simply state that he is to say like Eretz Yisrael
[5] Birkeiy Yosef 117:5 in name of Maharaz Guto and Mahari Malko 67 and many other Gedolim in negation of Radbaz and Peri Chadash ibid [however see M”B ibid who understands them differently]; Dvar Shmuel 323; Kesher Gudal 16:13; See Shalmei Tzibur p. 129; Beis Oved 2; Beir Chaim 5 [of Rav Shmuel Vital]; Chesed Lealafim 117:14; Makor Chaim 117; Ketzos Hashulchan 21:10; Rebbe in Likkutei Sichos 19:464 [brought in Shulchan Menachem 1:77] brings like the opinion of Chida and that so rule majority of Achronim; Hiskashrus; Both opinions are brought in M”B 117:5 without a clear arbitration; See Birur Halacha 117:1; Rivivos Efraim 4:255
[6] See Beir Moshe 7:117 and Teshuvos Vehanhagos 2:55 that if he plans to return to Eretz Yisrael before the 5th of December, he may begin saying it in the Diapsora
[7] The reason: As the request of rain is a personal need, and hence each person should request based on whether it is needed at that time in his current location. [Dvar Shmuel ibid] Alternatively, a single person is not to ask for rain alone until the congregation in his area begins to ask. [Birkeiy Yosef ibid] Perhaps this is due to Lo Sisgodedu. [Rebbe ibid]
[8] Birkeiy Yosef 117:8 Kesher Gudal 16:10; Shalmei Tzibur p. 129; Beis Oved 4; Chesed Lealafim 117:14; Kaf Hachaim 117:14; See however Piskeiy Teshuvos 117:3 and footnote 25 in name of Poskim that if he will be in an area without a Jewish community, then he may say like Eretz Yisrael.
[9] See Admur 117:1; Suggestion of Rebbe in Likkutei Sichos 19:464 [brought in Shulchan Menachem 1:77]; Dinim Vihanhagos of Chazon Ish 4:26; Orchos Rabbeinu 1:84; Sefer Eretz Yisrael of Rav Tukichinsky that so is Sefaradi custom; Ruling of Divrei Yoel; Divrei Yatziv 1:68; Mishneh Halachos 5:28; Cheshev Haeifod 3:7; Shevet Halevi 10:22; Kaneh Bosem 1:10; Rav SZ”A in Halichos Shlomo 8:19 and Yom Tov Sheiyni Kehilchaso 10 footnote 8; Piskeiy Teshuvos 117:3; See Ishei Yisrael 23:37; Hiskashrus 644 p. 18
[10] Birkeiy Yosef 117:8; Kaf Hachaim 117:12; Ketzos Hashulchan 21:10; Hiskashrus; See Kesher Gudal 16:14; Shalmei Tzibur p. 129; Beis Oved 5
[11] Rav SZ”A in Yom Tov Sheiyni Kehilchaso 10 footnote 8; Mishneh Halachos 11:80-81; Piskeiy Teshuvos 117:3
[12] In such a case, he is to recite it accoridng to all, either due to the first opinion, or the second opinion.
[13] Divrei Yatziv 1:68; Minchas Yitzchak 10:9; Yechaveh Daas 1:73; Piskeiy Teshuvos 117:3 [see there footnote 29 that some suggest Davening again as a Nedava]
The reason: As some Poskim [Birkeiy Yosef 117:5 in name of Maharaz Guto and Mahari Malko 67 and many other Gedolim in negation of Radbaz and Peri Chadash ibid; Dvar Shmuel 323; Kesher Gudal 16:13; Shalmei Tzibur p. 129; Beis Oved 2; Beir Chaim 5 [of Rav Shmuel Vital]; Chesed Lealafim 117:14; Makor Chaim 117; M”B 117:5; Ketzos Hashulchan 21:10; Rebbe in Likkutei Sichos 19:464; See Birur Halacha 117:1; Rivivos Efraim 4:255] rule a traveler is to always follow the area that he is currently in irrelevant of when he plans to return, and hence he begins to recite Vesein Tal Umatar on the 7th of MarCheshvan. Accordingly, we rule Safek Brachos Lihakel. [Poskim ibid]
[14] Betzel Hachochma 1:62; Beir Moshe 7:117
[15] Birkeiy Yosef 117:5; Kesher Gudal 16:9; Shalmei Tzibur p. 129; Beis Oved 3; Chesed Lealafim 117:14; Shaareiy Teshuvah 117:4; Kaf Hachaim 117:13; Ketzos Hashulchan 21:10; Piskeiy Teshuvos 117:3
The reason: Once he has started he is not to stop, as it seems like a mockery. [Birkeiy Yosef ibid]
If one moves with his family to the Diaspora: If one moves with his family to the Diaspora between the 7th of Marcheshvan and the 5th of December, some write that he is to stop saying Visein Tal Umatar in such a case. [Yayin Tov 35; Beir Moshe 7:117; See Piskeiy Teshuvos ibid]
[16] Implication of Poskim ibid; Piskeiy Teshuvos ibid footnote 17
[17] Birkeiy Yosef 117:8; Kaf Hachaim 117:12; Ketzos Hashulchan 21:10; Hiskashrus; See Kesher Gudal 16:14; Shalmei Tzibur p. 129; Beis Oved 5
[18] Rav SZ”A in Yom Tov Sheiyni Kehilchaso 10 footnote 8; Mishneh Halachos 11:80-81; Piskeiy Teshuvos 117:3
[19] Divrei Yatziv 1:68; Minchas Yitzchak 10:9; Yechaveh Daas 1:73; Piskeiy Teshuvos 117:3 [see there footnote 29 that some suggest Davening again as a Nedava]
The reason: As some Poskim [Birkeiy Yosef 117:5 in name of Maharaz Guto and Mahari Malko 67 and many other Gedolim in negation of Radbaz and Peri Chadash ibid; Dvar Shmuel 323; Kesher Gudal 16:13; Shalmei Tzibur p. 129; Beis Oved 2; Beir Chaim 5 [of Rav Shmuel Vital]; Chesed Lealafim 117:14; Makor Chaim 117; M”B 117:5; Ketzos Hashulchan 21:10; Rebbe in Likkutei Sichos 19:464; See Birur Halacha 117:1; Rivivos Efraim 4:255] rule a traveler is to always follow the area that he is currently in irrelevant of when he plans to return, and hence he begins to recite Vesein Tal Umatar on the 7th of MarCheshvan. Accordingly, we rule Safek Brachos Lihakel. [Poskim ibid]
[20] Betzel Hachochma 1:62; Beir Moshe 7:117
[21] See M”B 117:5
[22] Peri Chadash 117:2 [brought in Beir Heiytiv and M”B ibid]; Maharikash in Erech Lechem 117 [even if does not plan to return during rain season, he does not mention a difference in the law if he does not plan to return until years later]; Halachos Ketanos 1:74 in name of Maharikash; Radaz 5:55 [that if plan to return during rain season, or if he has a wife and children in Israel, then is to say]; Shalmei Tizbur p. 128; P”M 117 M”Z 1 in name of Peri Chadash ibid; Gloss of Rav Akiva Eiger 117 [Hachadashos]; Shulchan Hatahor 117:3; Toras Chaim Sofer 117:3; Igros Moshe 2:102; Dvar Yehoshua 2:14; Mishneh Shlomo 1:7; Vayeishev Moshe 1:102
[23] Peri Chadash ibid; P”M ibid; See other Poskim ibid in previous footnote [Maharikash, Halachos Ketanos, Radbaz] who do not explicitly make this differentiation and simply state that he is to say like Eretz Yisrael
[24] Birkeiy Yosef 117:5 in name of Maharaz Guto and Mahari Malko 67 and many other Gedolim in negation of Radbaz and Peri Chadash ibid [however see M”B ibid who understands them differently]; Dvar Shmuel 323; Kesher Gudal 16:13; Shalmei Tzibur p. 129; Beis Oved 2; Beir Chaim 5 [of Rav Shmuel Vital]; Chesed Lealafim 117:14; Makor Chaim 117; Ketzos Hashulchan 21:10; Rebbe in Likkutei Sichos 19:464 [brought in Shulchan Menachem 1:77] brings like the opinion of Chida and that so rule majority of Achronim; Hiskashrus; Both opinions are brought in M”B 117:5 without a clear arbitration; See Birur Halacha 117:1; Rivivos Efraim 4:255
[25] The reason: As the request of rain is a personal need, and hence each person should request based on whether it is needed at that time in his current location. [Dvar Shmuel ibid; Birkeiy Yosef ibid]
[26] Divrei Yatziv 1:68; Betzeil Hachochma 1:62; Shevet Halevi 10:22; Kaneh Bosem 1:10; Birur Halacha 117; Piskeiy Teshuvos 117:3
[27] Divrei Yatziv ibid; Shraga Hameir 7:148; Minchas Yitzchak 10:9; Piskeiy Teshuvos ibid; Some Poskim rule that in such a case he is to recite it in Shomeia Tefila while in the Diaspora. [Yechaveh Daas 1:73; ]; Other Poskim rule that if he plans to return to the Diaspora before the 5th of December, he is to recite it in Shomeia Tefila even while in Eretz Yisrael [Beir Moshe 7:117; Teshuvos Vehanhagos 2:55; Rav SZ”A in Halichos Shlomo 8:19; Mishneh Shlomo 1:7 in name of Tzchebiner Rav that if they plan to return before Pesach, they should ask like Diaspora; Vayeishev Moshe 1:102]
[28] Divrei Yatziv ibid; Minchas Yitzchak 10:9; Yechaveh Daas ibid; Piskeiy Teshuvos ibid [see there footnote 29 that some suggest Davening again as a Nedava]
[29] Divrei Yatziv ibid; Shraga Hameir 7:148; Minchas Yitzchak 10:9; Piskeiy Teshuvos ibid
[30] Beir Moshe 7:117; Teshuvos Vehanhagos 2:55