How to answer Kedusha

How to answer Kedusha:[1]
Just as the Mitzvah of Kaddish is for the Chazan to recite Yiskadel Viyiskadesh etc on behalf of the congregation, and they answer after him Amen Yihei Shmei Raba, so too, Lechatchila, is the Mitzvah of Kedusha. The Mitzvah is to be done as follows: The Chazan is to recite Nakdishach or Nikadesh [based on Nussach] and the congregation is to listen quietly and pay attention to the words of the Chazan until he reaches Kedusha, in which case the congregation answers Kadosh. The same applies by Leumasam and Ubidivrei Kadshecha [that the Chazan says it alone and the congregation listens quietly and pays attention to the words of the Chazan and then answers Baruch and Yimloch]. Although there is no prohibition due to a Davar Shebekidusha for the entire congregation to recite all the words of Kedusha together with the Chazan[2], nevertheless, initially, by the Kedusha in Shemoneh Esrei, the congregation is to be accustomed to follow the order of Kaddish, of which the Amen Yihei Shemi Raba is a response of the congregation after Yisgadel is recited by the Chazan, similar to the answering of Amen after a blessing. So too in Kedusha, the congregation is to answer Kadosh and Baruch after Nakdishach or Nikadesh is said by the Chazan.[3] Even if there are nine or more people listening to the Chazan, nevertheless, one is not to initially recite the Kedusha with the Chazan even word for word and is rather to answer with the congregation.[4]

Time of need-Beginning Shemoneh Esrei with Chazan:[5] All the above is Lechatchila, however in a time of need, such as in a case that one is forced to begin Shemoneh Esrei together with the Chazan in the circumstances explained in 109/1, then one is to answer Kedusha together with the Chazan word for words and not together with the congregation. However, if it is not a time of need and one is not forced to begin Shemoneh Esrei together with the Chazan, then he is not to do so, as initially one is required to be silent and listen to the Nussach of Kedusha from the Chazan and answer after him only Kadosh, Baruch and Yimloch.

Custom of some:[6] Some[7] are accustomed for reasons known to them to recite the entire Nussach of Kedusha together with the Chazan, word for word, even not in a time of need. They recite the words Nakdishach Venaritzach and Kadosh Kadosh Kadosh etc aloud while the remainder of the Kedusha they recite silently.

 

The parts of Kedusha recited by the Chazan and by the congregation:[8]
Nakdishach
:[9] The Chazan is to recite Nakdishach or Nikadesh [based on Nussach] and the congregation is to listen quietly and pay attention to the words of the Chazan until he reaches Kedusha, in which case the congregation answers Kadosh. The congregation is not to say Nakdishach, neither on one’s own[10] or with the Chazan[11] or in unison[12]. However some[13] are accustomed to recite it quietly with the Chazan. They recite the words Nakdishach Venaritzach aloud while the remainder they recite silently. [Practically, the widespread custom today is for the congregation to recite Nakdishach.[14] The Chazan recites it after the conclusion of the congregation.[15] Some congregations however even today are accustomed not to recite Nakdishach.[16]]

Kadosh:[17] The congregation is to answer Kadosh after Nakdishach/Nikadesh is said by the Chazan. [The Chazan says it together with the congregation.[18]] The words Kadosh Kadosh Kadosh etc are to be aloud.[19]  The Chazan must make sure to finish reciting Leumasam [only after the congregation completes the stanza[20]] prior to the congregation beginning Baruch.[21] [This means that the Chazan is not to stretch the saying of Leumasam in a way that the congregation already begins saying Baruch before he concludes.[22]]

Baruch:[23] The congregation is to answer Baruch after [Leumasam] is said by the Chazan. [The Chazan says it together with the congregation.[24]] The Chazan must make sure to finish reciting Ubidivrei [only after the congregation completes the stanza[25]] prior to the congregation beginning Yimloch.[26] [This means that the Chazan is not to stretch the saying of Leumasam in a way that the congregation already begins saying Yimloch before he concludes.[27]]

Yimloch:[28] The congregation is to answer Yimloch after [Ubidivrei Kadshecha] is said by the Chazan. [The Chazan says it together with the congregation.[29]]

Leumasam and Ubidivrei Kadshecha: The Chazan says Leumasam and Ubidivrei Kadshecha alone and the congregation listens quietly and pays attention to the words of the Chazan and then answers Baruch and Yimloch.[30] [The congregation is not to recite it at all.[31]] However some[32] are accustomed to recite it quietly with the Chazan. [Practically, many are accustomed for only for the Chazan to say it and have the congregation listen[33], and so is the widespread Chabad custom.[34] Others however are accustomed to say it like the latter opinion.[35]]

 

Summary:
Nakdishach: The congregation is to recite Nakdishach prior to the Chazan. The Chazan recites it after the conclusion of the congregation.

Kadosh: The congregation is to answer Kadosh after Nakdishach/Nikadesh is said by the Chazan. The Chazan says it together with the congregation. The Chazan must make sure to finish reciting Leumasam only after the congregation completes the stanza, prior to the congregation beginning Baruch. Many are accustomed for only the Chazan to say the concluding words of Leumasam, and not the congregation.

Baruch: The congregation is to answer Baruch after [Leumasam] is said by the Chazan. The Chazan says it together with the congregation. The Chazan must make sure to finish reciting Ubidivrei only after the congregation completes the stanza, prior to the congregation beginning Yimloch. Many are accustomed for only the Chazan to say the concluding words of Leumasam, and not the congregation.

Yimloch: The congregation is to answer Yimloch after Ubidivrei Kadshecha is said by the Chazan. The Chazan says it together with the congregation.


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[1] Admur 125/1 and 109/3; Michaber 125/1; M”A 125/1; Rosh 4/19

[2] The reason: The prohibition against saying a Davar Shebikidusha without a Minyan is only when one says it individually. If however the entire congregation is accustomed to recite it with the Chazan, even if they don’t recite word for word with the Chazan, there is no need to protest them, being that they are sanctifying Hashem’s name in a quorum of ten men. Now, although a congregation is only considered valid when one person says it and another nine listen, while if everyone says it on their own they are considered like a group of individuals, as explained in 594, nevertheless, by a Davar Shebikidusha it is not necessary to have the status of a congregation. One is only prohibited from saying a Davar Shebekidusha with less than ten, however ten people may say Nakdishach together just like they say Kadosh and Baruch together, which is the main part of Kedusha, and even so the congregation recites it together without answering after the Chazan. This is similar to the Kedusha recited in Uva Letziyon, according to those who hold that it must be recited with ten. [Admur ibid]

[3] Admur ibid; M”A 109/9 as explained in Levushei Serud and 125/1 as explained in Machatzis Hashekel

The explanation: Kedusha was instituted to be recited by the Chazan on behalf of the congregation, and he serves as their emissary. Now, if the congregation says it with him, how can he be considered their emissary? It is therefore necessary for at least nine congregants to listen to the Chazan and answer after him. [Machatzis Hashekel ibid; M”B 125/1]

[4] Admur ibid; M”A 125/1; See Machatzis Hashekel in previous footnote; Biur Halacha 125/1 “Ein Hatzibor”

The explanation: The novelty of Admur here is that even if there are nine people listening to the Chazan, and he is hence considered an emissary as the Sages instituted, nevertheless he is not to do so, as in addition for the Chazan being an emissary the congregant must be a sender, which is expressed by him answering after the Chazan.[See M”B 125/1]

Other opinions: Some Poskim rule it is permitted for one to say it together with the Chazan word for word. [Taz ibid; See P”M 125 M”Z 1; Levushei Serud 109/9]

[5] Admur 109/3 and 125/1

[6] Custom brought in Admur 125/1; M”A 125/2;  Rav Akiva Eiger 125; See Kaf Hachaim 125/2

[7] Arizal brought in Peri Eitz Chaim Shaar Chazaras Hamida 2; Rav Akiva Eiger 125 concludes based on Nazir Shimshon that os is the p[roepr custom to follow

[8] See Piskeiy Teshuvos 125/2

[9] Admur 125/1; Michaber 125/1; M”A 109/9; Rosh 4/19; M”B 125/2 that so is the main ruling and proper custom

[10] The reason: (An individual is not allowed to recite Nakdishach [without having another 9 people say it with him simultaneously, or listen to his recital] being that Nakdishach was set as part of the Nussach of Kedusha, and therefore must be treated as a Davar Shebekidusha just like Kadosh and Baruch. Now, a Davar Shebikidusha may not be recited with less than ten people, and the Chazan has nine people hearing and listening to his Nakdishach, but who is listening to the individual’s Nakdishach.)  [Admur ibid in parentheses]

[11] The reason: If one desired to recite Nakdishach word for word quietly with the Chazan, there is no prohibition to do so, as since both him and the Chazan are saying word for word together, both of their recitals are considered like one, as explained in 183/10, [and there is thus no prohibition against saying Nakdishach without a Minyan]. [Admur ibid; Taz 125/1] Nevertheless, even so, one is not initially to recite Nakdishach even with the Chazan unless it is a time of need, as explained above. [Admur ibid; M”A 109/9; See P”M 125 M”Z 1]

Other opinions: Some Poskim rule it is permitted for one to say it together with the Chazan. [Taz ibid; See P”M 125 M”Z 1; Levushei Serud 109/9]

[12] The reason: The above prohibition against saying a Nakdishach without a Minyan is only when one says it individually. If however the entire congregation is accustomed to recite it with the Chazan, even if they don’t recite word for word with the Chazan, there is no need to protest them, being that they are sanctifying Hashem’s name in a quorum of ten men. Now, although a congregation is only considered valid when one person says it and another nine listen, while if everyone says it on their own they are considered like a group of individuals, as explained in 594, nevertheless, by a Davar Shebikidusha it is not necessary to have the status of a congregation. One is only prohibited from saying a Davar Shebekidusha with less than ten, however ten people may say Nakdishach together just like they say Kadosh and Baruch together, which is the main part of Kedusha, and even so the congregation recites it together without answering after the Chazan. This is similar to the Kedusha recited in Uva Letziyon, according to those who hold that it must be recited with ten. Nevertheless, initially, by the Kedusha in Shemoneh Esrei, the congregation is to be accustomed to follow the order of Kaddish, of which the Amen Yihei Shemi Raba is a response of the congregation after Yisgadel is recited by the Chazan, similar to the answering of Amen after a blessing. So too in Kedusha, the congregation is to answer Kadosh and Baruch after Nakdishach or Nikadesh is said by the Chazan. [Admur ibid] Alternatively, the reason is because how can the entire congregation recite Nekadesh when it implies that one person is saying it to others for them to answer. [Levush 125, brought in P”M 125 M”z 1]

[13] Arizal brought in Peri Eitz Chaim Shaar Chazaras Hamida 2

[14] Rav Akiva Eiger 125 that so is the proper custom, like the Arizal; Levushei Serud 109/9 regarding Nakdishach that so is the widespread Ashkenazi custom of today based on Taz 125/1 and Levushei Serud 125/1 that this follows the Arizal ibid and so is implied from Rokeiach; M”B 125/2 that so is the custom today

The reason: This is either because we follow the ruling of the Taz 125/1 or because we follow the ruling of the Arizal. [Biur Halacha 125/1 “Ein Hatzibur”

[15] Pashut, in order for the congregation to hear his Nakdishach and answer Kadosh to it,; Likewise, Nakdishach was always said only by the Chazan; The Rebbe’s custom was to begin it towards the end of the stanza of the congregation; Some say the Rebbe recited the first word Nakdishach with the congregation and then continued with Naritzah afterwards. [See Hiskashrus 515]

Other customs: Some are accustomed for the Chazan to recite all of Kedusha word for word with the congregation. [Arizal ibid; custom of Seafreadim] However even according to the Arizal the congregation is to only recite the first two words aloud and the rest in silent so they can hear the Chazan.

[16] Levushei Serud 125 that so is the widespread custom; M”B 125/2 that so is the main ruling and proper custom and so was the custom of the Gr”a in Maaseh Rav 44; Custom of Chasam Sofer, brought in Piskeiy Teshuvos 125/2 footnote 1

[17] Admur 125/1;

[18] Admur 125/1 that so is the custom by Kadosh and Baruch; Custom of Arizal that Chazan and congregation say it all together; Rambam Seder Hatefila, brought in Yifei Laleiv 125/2, that all Davar Shebekedusha is to be said together; Custom of Sefaradim, brought in Ketzos Hashulchan 83 footnote 22; Custom of Rebbe

Other customs: Many are accustomed for the Chazan to say it after the congregation concludes the stanza. [Beis Yehuda 2/3; Ketzos Hashulchan 83 footnote 22 that many Chazanaim during the weekday say it afterwards and on Shabbos say it together; Igros Moshe 3/4; Piskeiy Teshuvos 125/2] This is valid being that the Chazan has nine Jews listening to his Kedusha and it is hence considered a Minyan. [Admur 125/1; 2nd explanation in Biur Halacha 125/1 “Ela Shoskin”; Vetzrauch Iyun Gadol from Ketzos Hashulchan 83 footnote 22 who writes the Chazan must begin with Kdei Dibur of the congregation while according to Admur ibid it is clear that this is not necessary since the Tzibur is listening] Some however are particular that the Chazan begin saying it before the congregation completes the stanza. [See Biur Halacha ibid in name of Elya Raba; Piskeiy Teshuvos ibid] The advantage of delaying the Kedusha until after the congregation finishes is that those who are in middle of Shemoneh Esrei may hear the words from the Chzan and be Yotzei. [Ketzos Hashulchan 83 footnote 22; Piskeiy Teshuvos 125/2 footnote 16]

[19] Admur ibid in custom of Arizal; Kaf Hachaim 125/2

[20] Pashut, as the congregation must hear him say Leumasam and answer to it, as stated in Admur 125/1, and even according to the Arizal these words are to be recited quietly by the congregation

[21] Admur 125/2; M”A 125/1; Sefer Chassidim 806

[22] M”B 125/2

[23] Admur 125/1;

[24] Admur 125/1 that so is the custom by Kadosh and Baruch; Custom of Arizal that Chazan and congregation say it all together; Rambam Seder Hatefila, brought in Yifei Laleiv 125/2, that all Davar Shebekedusha is to be said together; Custom of Sefaradim, brought in Ketzos Hashulchan 83 footnote 22; Custom of Rebbe

Other customs: Many are accustomed for the Chazan to say it after the congregation concludes the stanza. [Beis Yehuda 2/3; Ketzos Hashulchan 83 footnote 22 that many Chazanaim during the weekday say it afterwards and on Shabbos say it together; Igros Moshe 3/4; Piskeiy Teshuvos 125/2] This is valid being that the Chazan has nine Jews listening to his Kedusha and it is hence considered a Minyan. [Admur 125/1; 2nd explanation in Biur Halacha 125/1 “Ela Shoskin”; Vetzrauch Iyun Gadol from Ketzos Hashulchan 83 footnote 22 who writes the Chazan must begin with Kdei Dibur of the congregation while according to Admur ibid it is clear that this is not necessary since the Tzibur is listening] Some however are particular that the Chazan begin saying it before the congregation completes the stanza. [See Biur Halacha ibid in name of Elya Raba; Piskeiy Teshuvos ibid] The advantage of delaying the Kedusha until after the congregation finishes is that those who are in middle of Shemoneh Esrei may hear the words from the Chzan and be Yotzei. [Ketzos Hashulchan 83 footnote 22; Piskeiy Teshuvos 125/2 footnote 16]

[25] Pashut, as the congregation must hear him say Leumasam and answer to it, as stated in Admur 125/1, and even according to the Arizal these words are to be recited quietly by the congregation

[26] Admur 125/2; M”A 125/1; Sefer Chassidim 806

[27] M”B 125/2

[28] Admur 109/3; 125/2;

[29] Admur 125/1 that so is the custom by Kadosh and Baruch; Custom of Arizal that Chazan and congregation say it all together; Rambam Seder Hatefila, brought in Yifei Laleiv 125/2, that all Davar Shebekedusha is to be said together; Custom of Sefaradim, brought in Ketzos Hashulchan 83 footnote 22; Custom of Rebbe

Other customs: Many are accustomed for the Chazan to say it after the congregation concludes the stanza. [Beis Yehuda 2/3; Ketzos Hashulchan 83 footnote 22 that many Chazanaim during the weekday say it afterwards and on Shabbos say it together; Igros Moshe 3/4; Piskeiy Teshuvos 125/2] This is valid being that the Chazan has nine Jews listening to his Kedusha and it is hence considered a Minyan. [Admur 125/1; 2nd explanation in Biur Halacha 125/1 “Ela Shoskin”; Vetzrauch Iyun Gadol from Ketzos Hashulchan 83 footnote 22 who writes the Chazan must begin with Kdei Dibur of the congregation while according to Admur ibid it is clear that this is not necessary since the Tzibur is listening] Some however are particular that the Chazan begin saying it before the congregation completes the stanza. [See Biur Halacha ibid in name of Elya Raba; Piskeiy Teshuvos ibid] The advantage of delaying the Kedusha until after the congregation finishes is that those who are in middle of Shemoneh Esrei may hear the words from the Chzan and be Yotzei. [Ketzos Hashulchan 83 footnote 22; Piskeiy Teshuvos 125/2 footnote 16]

[30] Admur 125/1 “The same applies by Leumasam and Ubidivrei Kadshecha” and 125/2 “The Chazan must make sure to finish reciting Leumasam and Ubidivrei Kodshecha prior to the congregation beginning Baruch and Yimloch.”; Beis Yosef 125, brought in Taz 125/1; Rosh 7/19; M”A 109/9 and 125/1 as explained in Machatzis Hashekel; Kneses Hagedola; Kesher Gudal 18/15; Shalmei Tzibur p. 138

The reason: As initially the congregation is to answer Kadosh and Baruch after Leumasam/Ubidivrei is said by the Chazan just as is the order of Kaddish, of which the Amen Yihei Shemi Raba is a response of the congregation after Yisgadel is recited by the Chazan, similar to the answering of Amen after a blessing. [See Admur ibid]

[31] First explanation and conclusion of Beis Yosef 125, brought in Taz 125/1; M”A 125/1 as explained in Machatzis Hashekel; Implication of Admur and Poskim ibid

Other opinions: Some Poskim rule it is permitted for one to say it together with the Chazan. [Taz ibid; 2nd explanation in Beis Yosef ibid; See Elya Raba 125/1; P”M 125 M”Z 1; Levushei Serud 109/9]

[32] Custom brought in Admur 125/1; Arizal brought in Peri Eitz Chaim Shaar Chazaras Hamida 2

[33] Custom of Russian and Lithuanian Jewry; Ateres Zekeinim 125 in name of Beis Yosef; Custom of Gr”a and Chasam Sofer; Aruch Hashulchan 125/2 that so is the custom; Ketzos Hashulchan 19 footnote 5 that so is the widespread custom

The reason: Although some of these Poskim ibid rule that even Nakdishach is not to be said by the congregation, and our custom is to recite Nakdishach, nevertheless we do not say Leumasam, as perhaps we do not desire to make a Hefsek in the middle of the Kedusha. [Aruch Hashulchan ibid]

[34] Ketzos Hashulchan 19 footnote 5; Rav Leibal Groner in a written correspondence that our custom is only for the Chazan to say it; Rav Eliyahu Landa; See however Rav Ginzberg in Hiskashrus 515 that one should say it, as explained to be the Rebbes custom and as explained in the next footnote based on our custom to say Nakdishach and as explained by the directive of the Rebbe Rayatz to recite the Hosafos on Shabbos even in middle of Davening and no proof can be brought from the Siddur which states “only Chazan” by Leumasam/Ubidivrei as these additions were not added by the Alter Rebbe

The Rebbe’s custom: Some testify that the Rebbe’s custom was to say Leumasam Mishabchim Veomrim and Ubidivrei Kodhshecha, quietly together with the Chazan. [See Hiskashrus 515]

[35] Minhag of Sefaradim and Chassidie Polin; Rav Akiva Eiger 125 that one should follow the Arizal; Levushei Serud 109/9 regarding Nakdishach that so is the widespread Ashkenazi custom of today and 125/1 that this follows the Arizal ibid and so is implied from Rokeiach; Ketzos Hashulchan 19 footnote 5 that so is the custom of a few; Piskeiy Teshuvos 125/2 footnote 13 and Hiskashrus ibid that all those who say Nakdishach should also say Leumasam and Ubidivrei, as so rules the Arizal, and on the contrary, it is more Pashut that the congregation can say Leumasam than Nakdishach, and hence if they say Nakdishach certainly they should say Leumasam. [See Beis Yosef 125; Elya Raba 125/1; Taz 125/1; Levush 125, brought in P”M 125 M”Z 1 who all imply Leumasam is less severe to say than Nakdishach]

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